DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

V

veganway

Active member
Hi everybody!

I'm new here. I bought a DVX100AE (I'm in a PAL country)and was immediately amazed by the quality of the lens and colors.
But there really are some issues that are driving me *crazy*... >:( :

1) The general audio volume is too low!!!....Suppose I want to use the integrated mic (for a normal recording...like, let's say, a wedding). I leave the default settings....mid volume for both channels...(as suggested my the manual, too!!!) but the result is that I have to raise the tv volume to the maximum to hear something *decent* once I've recorded..........I've never seen a camera that records audio at this low volume with its own mic.....If I raise the volume of both channels **to the maximum**, I reach a volume that still makes me want to raise the tv output a little. You can already see when you're recording that the VU-METER levels are low...With the "mid" setting the levels reach 1/4 of the db scale....I also tried to set MIC ALC option on "off"....Nothing changes. I find ridiculous to have an on camera compressor when the general volume is instead too low!!! I read this camera had one of the best audio in its category....But even a Panasonic technician who had never touched this model before noticed the same problem, too. He was quite puzzled.
He even tried a DVX100 (not "AE") and noticed the same issue!!!! He simply stated these two models have mid position-settings for the stereo channels that don't really correspond to mid volumes...there's something wrong at the base....So you have to raise the channels volumes when you record. Also, the integrated mic is so weak, it really cannot percieve sounds coming from "far" (3 meters...) distances...(not to mention the directional Panasonic XLR Mic...very weak, too!) How can be that nobody has ever pointed this problem out on forums like this one??? :o ???

2) I hear a very annoying delay/echo during recording...the video I record, then, sounds fine, though. I can hear the delay both in my hearphones, and through a tv...The delay is present in **50i -25fps-**(and of course you can notice it even more in 25p). This is terribly annoying...how can I properly control the audio I'm recoring?? I don't have the money to buy a mixer...And I think this whole issue is just absurd. Someone had already spoken about this problem, but the discussion went nowhere.....has anybody else noticed this??? Again, I tried a DVX100 (beside my "AE"), too: **same problem** there. The Panasonic technician said: "The audio is processed...the video has priority, so the audio comes with a little delay"...This was his answer.
I had never had this problem with Canon XL1, GL1 (XM1), or even my old Sony Digital 8...Where's the point??? >:( :'(

3) Finally, I'm very disappointed with all this 25p issue...you know...flicker, buzz...this has already been discussed here...but I'm wondering: what's the 25p good for, then? People who buy this camera usually *don't* have the money to put a video on film....So...as the 25p is only good for fixed shots (as the Panasonic technician also told me)...how comes Panasonic sells this camera saying it's ideal for *filmakers* that actually make *moving pictures*...not static interviews!!!??? >:(

Please help me trying to solve these misteries...

My nerves will thank you... >:(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

1. buy a decent mic. the cam has great sound recording ability, but that doesnt mean the onboard mic is any good. its ok for the most part if your in a small room, but i wouldnt be using it for any serious productions.

2. the audio delay is a 2 frame delay that i thought only to be present within the ntsc model when it is in the 24p modes. the pal model may have a 1 frame delay or around there, but if you can tell somthings 1/24 of a sec off i applaud you.. there shuldnt be an echo, or delay effect. sounds like your having some sort of issue with your mic settings. your mic may be defective, but first i woul make sure everything is set properly .

3. that panasonic rep should be fired. obviously if you look at some of the work coming from the pal cam in 25p with movement, its beautiful. many terrific things have been shot with it.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

I am often puzzled as I don't seem to have these problems. Most likely due to a PAL version?

Are you using the onboard mic directly or are you using an external mic set-up as a traditional shoot would warrant?

The PANI tech told you "It was only good for fixed shots?" What? Is he an idiot?

I'm not sure about 25p, but what shutter speed have you been shooting in?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Thanks for your answers.

iamloser:

"1. buy a decent mic. the cam has great sound recording ability, but that doesnt mean the onboard mic is any good. its ok for the most part if your in a small room, but i wouldnt be using it for any serious productions."

Of course I wouldn't use the onboard mic for serious productions...but even the cheapest MiniDV camera has a decent onboard mic level....it's simply crazy you cannot go farther than a small room with this camera..... >:(

"2. the audio delay is a 2 frame delay that i thought only to be present within the ntsc model when it is in the 24p modes. the pal model may have a 1 frame delay or around there, but if you can tell somthings 1/24 of a sec off i applaud you.. there shuldnt be an echo, or delay effect. sounds like your having some sort of issue with your mic settings. your mic may be defective, but first i woul make sure everything is set properly ."

The Panasonic technician and a sound engeneer that lives in my building and works for our national tv heard the echo/delay in normal 25fps mode....Also, as I said, I tried a DVX100 (PAL) and noticed the same thing....No setting can change this situation.... :'(

"3. that panasonic rep should be fired. obviously if you look at some of the work coming from the pal cam in 25p with movement, its beautiful. many terrific things have been shot with it."

It was my fault, I didn't write precisely what he said. But as the flicker problem is visible on flat lines, vertical ones especially, he said you can achieve good shots as far as you're, for istance, shooting a large grass field where no vertical lines are present (like in a room, where there are windows, doors...)....and, of course, fixed shots. So the best use for 25p is for fixed shots....It sounds crazy to me, yes, but the fact is I really see those flickers...so I don't know how I can achieve a good pan, for instance. :-/


John Hudson:

>I am often puzzled as I don't seem to have these problems. >Most likely due to a PAL version?

Maybe...... >:(

>Are you using the onboard mic directly or are you using an >external mic set-up as a traditional shoot would warrant?

I tried the onboard mic. Also, I tried the Panasonic directional one (I can't recall the name right now, sorry)...They're both very weak. As I said, of course I would use an external mic for professional use, but I just find crazy the idea of having this camera not being able to record at decent volume levels with its own mic. ???

>The PANI tech told you "It was only good for fixed shots?" >What? Is he an idiot?

See above...

>I'm not sure about 25p, but what shutter speed have you >been shooting in?

My shutter is on "Off" position as suggested...

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

The Pani was developed with filmakers in mind and I can't imagine ever using the onboard mic (albeit filming my 4 year old screwing around).

Like all technology, each have their own nuances and quirks that must be learned and figured out. Like IAL stated, there are some great things being done with this camera whether it be PAL or NTSC and it's just a matter of learning how to do it.

I hate to keep going back to this one example:

The simple fact that the film NOVEMBER was shot entirely with the DVX and went on to win the CINEMAOTGRAPHY award at Sundance speaks volumes about the capabilities of this camera.

It is not a run and gun camera and I would think any shoot requires some planning. I have never personally tried this, but can adjsuting the Syncrho Scan change the flickering that seems to plague the DV community? Just a thought...

I concur with IAL, that PANI rep should be axed.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

"It is not a run and gun camera and I would think any shoot requires some planning. I have never personally tried this, but can adjsuting the Syncrho Scan change the flickering that seems to plague the DV community? Just a thought..."

I'll give this option a try!!! Thanks! :)

"I concur with IAL, that PANI rep should be axed."

And he's the best one I met so far... :P
But what do you think about this flickering issue?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

..well the oly reason ive ever gotten an echo waas when i hook the dvx up via firewire to my editing station , and have the speakers on, so the audio comes in the dvx, and then loops back through the nle monitors, and back into the mic creating some ghostlike cavernous echo. but im assuming that this was not your problem as well. however the dvx pal and ntsc both record uncompressed 48kz audio. there is no difference between them in the way they do so. and nobody else seems to have this problem, so again your mic or unit may be defective. i dont dismiss that he heard and echo,and the audio is weak on your tested cam, but to assume that its present in all units, and the cam sucks for audio is somewhat out of place. nobody else has these issues. my onborad does fine at 1/2 level even for somthing 10 feet away. beyond that i wouldnt expect much, because its not a very directional mic.
as for the flickers and such- its an ongoing issue for pal users, but most find that using a high quality monitor takes care of this. my guess is that it in part comes from the high resolution of the pal image being displayed on a monitor that cant resolve things that detailed, so the detail jumps, and looks bad. but who knows, i havent ever touched a pal model, so youll have to experiment yourself.   i would suggest turning the detail down to -3 or -4  or using thick mode. even on the ntsc model this happens. unless your doing high qaulity film out with high resolution monitoring. you kinda have to "dumb it down".  but again there are plenty and plenty of pal users who are pumping out loads of awsome footage, so what can i say...
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

I hate the flickering issue! (We are talking abut say, when filming vertical blinds or a chain link fence? Yes?)

Funny though:

I was watching SCREAM last night (Listening to commentary and studying lighting) and there are a couple shots in this film where there is the Notorius Flickering on some blinds in the film). They were very minute but noticable to my eye!

I want to see if the snchro scan will help reduce this phenom.

Barry? Steve? JArred? Am I talking out my ass here? What do you think?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

thats aliasing.. shutter speed aint gonna help. You can however turn thick on or lower your detail. In video the grass likes to move.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

sychro scan wont help, only adjusting the angle, or turning detail dow will reduce the kind of flicker your reffering to- which is called "moire"(or somtimes "aliasing"). its basically an optical illusion which actually happens in your eyes, and brain. you could look at a still picture with the same pattern, and move your head, and you would see this illusion still(like in those optical illusion books, or if you draw a bunch of lines very close together, and then move your head while you look at them. the moire pattern happens when... balh bah..let me find an internet site that explains it so i dint have to,, wait a min..
1.
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/moire/moire.html
2.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/moire_patterns.html
3.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/xref/exhibits/moire_patterns.html

anyway a moire shimmer can also be caused by fiune amounts of detail like a shirt with fine lines repeated over and over, or very details speckles and so on.. and is a big reason why anti-aliasing was invented which smooths and blends out fine details to create a soft and non shimmering subject.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

"and nobody else seems to have this problem, so again your mic or unit may be defective. i dont dismiss that he heard and echo,and the audio is weak on your tested cam, but to assume that its present in all units, and the cam sucks for audio is somewhat out of place."

I really don't know what to say...I just know he had a DVX100 and noticed the same problems as on my DVX100AE....two defective units of different models? ???

"nobody else has these issues. my onborad does fine at 1/2 level even for somthing 10 feet away. beyond that i wouldnt expect much, because its not a very directional mic."

:o

"so youll have to experiment yourself. i would suggest turning the detail down to -3 or -4 or using thick mode."

I'm using thick mode...

"even on the ntsc model this happens. unless your doing high qaulity film out with high resolution monitoring. you kinda have to "dumb it down". but again there are plenty and plenty of pal users who are pumping out loads of awsome footage, so what can i say..."

Do you have any links where I can find videos shot in 25p?

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

audio sensativity can be adjusted between -50 and -60 db of course the -60 will give you more sensitivity. if you were in that mode, and were having that bad of issues ,i can only assume that both cams were defective. or somthing else other than normal operation was happening to make you get such weak audio.

cant say i know whats wrong if your in thick, and having the strobe issue. if its moire, then its pretty hard to get rid of pending the pattern, but if not, then sorry i cant offer any assistance, but heres a look at some nice 25p footage.

http://homepage.mac.com/shailevy/camera/presentderbesuch.html

you should take a look through the clips + grabs section, im sure you will find more to watch.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hello - welcome to the board. Sorry to hear of your experiences :(

1) The general audio volume is too low!!!....Suppose I want to use the

There is a setting (in the menu near the ALC control) to set the mic input level to -60 dB instead of -50 dB. This makes a significant difference. Have you tried this? See: http://www.bealecorner.com/dvx100/a-levels/audio-levels.html

I also have bought an external (AT835b) mike, but I made the above change for that mic as well.
 
2) I hear a very annoying delay/echo during recording...the video I

Looking at the Final Cut page, I've seen many cameras with some sort of delay. However, I understood that the DVX100A (at least the NTSC version) fixed this problem. I'm surprised to hear this is an issue for you.

For me - I understand Final Cut Pro has an option to adjust the audio for this. Or it can be done manually. For any real editing I'm going to be working with the audio anyway so I guess I'm not as concerned, but then I have the original DVX, so I will live with it.
 
3) Finally, I'm very disappointed with all this 25p issue...you

I'm not sure (haven't kept up with the board) about all these issues, but problems with thin lines can be dealt with by changing the scene files from thin to thick lines (as I recall, on the NTSC DVX100, the default 24p advanced scene file uses thin, and 24p basic uses thick). The manual notes that with the thin setting, display on a traditional TV will show flicker, but not with the setting to "thick." If I'm incorrectly stating this, I apologize, but if you haven't taken a look at it - give it a try.

Best wishes.

Brian
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

>audio sensativity can be adjusted between -50 and -60 db >of course the -60 will give you more sensitivity. if you were >in that mode, and were having that bad of issues ,i can only >assume that both cams were defective. or somthing else >other than normal operation was happening to make you get >such weak audio.

But isn't -50 and -60 only referred to XLR ports? Anyways, I tried to set -60 with the external directional mic, and the gain was really poor.

>cant say i know whats wrong if your in thick, and having the >strobe issue. if its moire, then its pretty hard to get rid of >pending the pattern, but if not, then sorry i cant offer any >assistance, but heres a look at some nice 25p footage.

I'm a little confused on strobe/flickering/buzz...

What I see is a sort of "doubling" of the lines when you move the camera....

Thanks for the link. I'll check it asap. Also, I'll read the moire articles.

Anyways....you're saying you've seen great shots in 25p.....But...have you ever seen them through a tv rather than just on your PC monitor? I think there's where the problem is, right?

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

brian .. i think he means delay as in -delay proccessing - like echo or reverb, and not a synch issue between the video and the sound. but you are right. the sound synch issue was corrected in the "A" model.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Brian:

thanks for your kind reply!

>There is a setting (in the menu near the ALC control) to set >the mic input level to -60 dB instead of -50 dB.  This makes >a significant difference.  Have you tried this?  See: >http://www.bealecorner.com/dvx100/a-levels/audio->levels.html

I'll play with it again. Anyways, I'm going to another audio studio, tonight. I'll see what this other engeneer tells me.

The echo/delay is a processing issue, yes. The recording sync is fine.
 
I normally use "thick mode"....but I see no difference between the two modes....the detail in "thin mode" is better, but nothing else changes... :(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hm what kind of TV/monitor do you use to view your 25P footage with?! Only an idea but perhaps it's some sort of problem with some sort of "progressive scan" or "100Hz" technology that's being built in most modern TVs here in PAL land...
I just remembered hearing stuff like that with the first DVD players and these "100Hz" TVs etc. .. there were all sorts of strange "strobing" and whatnot problems. Perhaps there's a possiblity to set your TV to progressive input or something like that?
Sorry if this is totally stupid but it was just an idea that came to my mind...
(as it has to be a problem in PAL land with the display devices as all people that have this problem have this in common: they say when viewed on a PC the problem is completely _not_ there!)

Cheers,
-Sören
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Well kids... these are the problems I've pointed out in past posts. I think when it comes to any electonic imaging system, your going to get some pattern problems and fickering crap.. it's just the nature of it. What you could try is turning the 24p off and see if your patterns and ringing are there. What will this prove... that it's all in the 24p (or 25P for you Chris) thing. And maybe this is a inherent thing with this camera. I guess you have to ask yourself is this exceptable? Can I deal with it. I know I've decided against this camera because of these very issues. Sorry to all you DVX guys... TRUST ME >> I WANT TO LIKE THIS CAMERA!!

Steve
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

LoL

No worries and no need to apologize. Like I said above, I havent had these problems and am unsure of how to correct the PAL issues (if any). There is most likely a solution I am sure.

Curious, what camera have you decided on?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top