DVX100A or PD170

Re: DVX100A or PD170

You don't have 24p on a PAL DVX, or 60i or 30p. You have 50i or 25p.

Even so, 25p, being progressive, will give you a much more film-like look than anything the PD-170 can do, not to mention the cine-gamma settings.
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

"But if I want the "film-look" I have to film in the 24p mode. I can't film with the panasonic 30i (SP) mode and acspect to get a cinema sensation."

well, thtas not really true.. theres alot more that goes into geting the "film look" than just the frame rate.. although that does have alot to do with it. as David said, you can shoot in the 50i mode, and still use the cinegamma and cinematrix..  and thats makes a HUGE difference as far as making it look more like film because of the color rendition, and gamma providing the dynamic range for exposure.. you simply cant get that with any other cam aside from the dvx big brothers(sdx900 or varicam..   actually i think the new dvc-30 or whatever has it too.. but that things a joke), or stepping up to the sony cinealta for 150, 000. + for just the camera.  so.. while im still unsure of why you seem to be afraid of shooting in  24p/25p(pal) instead of embracing the chance to use it(considering that every hollywood major motion picture is shot in it..which is was the whole point of using it in the dvx and other new filmmaking cameras.. like the varicam-sdx900- cine alta- , i mean if it was really that scary and bad and useless instead of the great tool that it is, you'd think the film industry would've wised up by now.. :P), if you should choose not to use it, you would still benefit from the many other features of the camera. and then, if you ever decide to get your feet wet.. its there.                     ..just waiting to make you kick yourself for not using it all along  ;)
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

I have to be thruthful: I don't know what 60i or 30p means. Does 30p doesn't mean 30 progressive right? 30 means 30 images per second right, but what does 60i means, 60 imgs/s

On the pd170 PAL you only have 25i, what ever that really means, is that right?



??? :P ???
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

Standard interlaced video (all PAL and NTSC monitors are interlaced) is made up of not of 'frames', but 'fields'.

Half of the picture is scanned, every other line of resolution, and then the alternate lines scanned. There are 60 half frames (fields) in NTSC, and 50 in PAL, per second of video footage.

Shooting progressive means that an entire frame was captured at the same moment in time, only 30 times per second in NTSC and 25 times in PAL.

Film captures progressively, it snaps a full frame of film 24 times per second.

Because there are less motion samples per second with progressive video, it gives a juddery look to your footage...while looking less life-like, it is closer to the traditional look of film (PAL being quite close, only one frame off per second).

So, 60i refers to an interlaced, NTSC signal. 50i refers to an interlaced PAL signal. 30P and 25P refer to progressive signals in NTSC and PAL, respectively.
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

It's all about frame rates. Wow, it's a long explanation.

PAL works at 25 frames per second. NTSC works at (about) 30 frames per second. Standard film is recorded at 24 frames per second.

The p and i stand for "progressive" or "interlaced." NTSC is "60i" because while it runs at (about) 30 frames per second, it's actually recording/showing only half of the frame at any given moment; this half is called a "field." There are two fields per frame, so there are (about) 60 fields per second. It's called "interlaced" because a field is not the top half or bottom half, but every other line of resolution (1, 3, 5, 7, etc., then 2, 4, 6, 8, etc.). 60i is 60 "interlaced" fields per second.

A progressive frame records the entire picture all at once, just like a frame in film would. 30p is 30 full frames per second; 24p is 24 full frames per second, just like a moving film would be recorded.

PAL is similar, but based on 25 frames per second. PAL TV is interlaced, so there are 50 fields per second in 50i mode. (This is what you see on TV.)

25p is 25 progressive frames. It's not exactly the same as 24p, but it is similar. It has the same relationship to 50i that 30p has to 60i, but because it's very close to the frame rate of film, it's very similar.

That was, no doubt, very confusing, but it's more like a whole lot of easy little things to understand than it is one huge hard thing to understand. Just take it in steps. Try to understand the difference between interlaced and progressive first, then delve into frame rates.
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

Well, your half right, 25i and 50i really mean the same thing, some people use them interchangebly, however, 50i is truely the "technical term". To put it simply, PAL=50interlaced and 25 Progressive, NTSC=60interlaced, 30Progressive, or 24Progressive. Since you are using PAL, completely forget about 24P or 30P alltogether. Don't even let those two things into your vocabulary. We will use PAL terms only, 50i or 25P. These are your only two choices in PAL. 50i means that every 1/50th of a second, one field of video is taken. A field is different from a frame because it is really only have of the entire frame. So considering that, every 1/25th of a second a whole frame is made up of two consecutive fields. Progressive is different in that shooting 25p means that every 1/25th of a second a whole frame is taken, it is not two consecutive fields, rather the whole frame captured at that same moment in time. the reason this looks more film like is because film is captured in a similar manner, rather, the whole frame is captured in one single monent in time, not split into two consecutive fields like video. Since 25P is so close to 24P (ie film) your eye will never know the difference. There are many advantages to shooting progressive, higher resolution images, no "combing" effect on moving images, it has the same cadence as film, gives the impression that a story is being told (this is something that has been ingrained in us from watching motion pitures at 24fps since little children). Don't concern yourself with anything other than 25P and 50i, it will only make things more confusing.
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

man it took me a long time to get that out, there have already been 5 posts since I started writing this thing. YOu guys are too quick. ;D
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

We got's the fastest hands in North America here on DVXuser...

*rides off into the sunset with fellow DVXusers*
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

So then the 100 000 dollar question is.

Why, when I tried out the camera in B&H I really saw that the image was not smoth when I moved the camera "too" fast, and I didn't even move it that fast.

My girlfriend works with film in France and like anybody elese working with cinema or film knows that the cameras can very well move and turn fast.

How come the image was "jerking" when I moved the camera, is it because even thoe it takes 25p images per second it doesn't take them fast enoght, like a professional camera.

Or does this jerking sensation disapear when I watch the clip later?
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

[quote author=permartinengman link=board=Links;num=1085421889;start=30#33 date=05/24/04 at 20:20:56]Why, when I tried out the camera in B&H I really saw that the image was not smoth when I moved the camera "too" fast, and I didn't even move it that fast.

Or does this jerking sensation disapear when I watch the clip later?
[/quote]

Yes, the LCD shows only like half the frame rate in 24P (or 25P), so it will look a lot jerkier than it really is. Hook it up to an external monitor to see what it'll really look like - which is the same as film would.
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

Ok, I'm assuming you were testing the PAL version on a PAL monitor, correct? If so, there shouldn't be any pulldown issues. It'll be displaying at the same rate you watch filmed movies on PAL sets. I don't know what to tell ya, that's just the way film looks played back on PAL.

The problem goes back to your original post. You need to treat the DVX like a film camera to get filmlike results. How many movies do you see where they handheld the camera (without a stabilizer system) and did fast pans/tilts/etc? Not many. There are techniques and tricks you can use to divert peoples attention (during fast pans, etc.). Handheld can still work, you just need to concentrate on steadiness and keep your movements slow. Note: these same rules would apply if you were shooting with a film camera.
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

[quote author=permartinengman link=board=Links;num=1085421889;start=30#33 date=05/24/04 at 20:20:56]My girlfriend works with film in France and like anybody elese working with cinema or film knows that the cameras can very well move and turn fast.
[/quote]

I would somewhat disagree with this. Cameras "can" move and turn fast, but rarely do. When they do, they usually keep something in the foreground centered and in focus, to keep your eyes on the non moving parts. Also, the very smooth pans they do with film cameras help lesson the jerky affect (I think it's a mental thing). If you start paying close attention in movies, you can see jerkiness all the time - just don't look where they want you to look ;)

Also, using a slower shutter with help rid some of the jerkiness, although the trade off is motion blur. Try using a shutter of 1/50, which is a typically setting for film.
 
Re: DVX100A or PD170

SirAllen is correct. I notice it all of the time and your attention is focused on the person, car, horse, dog..........

Look around the frame and you'll notice stabilizers floating back and forth (see SIGNS in the opening scene), stutters in the frame rate, etc.

Its our jobs as filmmakers to tell the audience what to look at.
 
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