DVX feature film needs sweetening.
- Thread starter ckalan1
- Start date
wabbit
Evil has Ears
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
Great post David (referring to the longer one, althought the other one is fine too).
It was my (or other's I believe) intention to discourage anyone. Just trying to offer some insight into dealing with hard working people in the business. Also offer a little bit of reality, that I think 95% of people in here already understand, about the possibilities of "breaking into" the movie business. I truely admire the passion people like David bring to their projects.
What bothers me is the people that take advantage of those just starting out naivete. I have heard stories of promised distribution, pay at that back-end that just isn't gonna happen (my favorite is the line about how when their movie breaks the producer/writer/director is going to take all those who help him to Hollywood). If you are making a student film then go for it and be honest about it. We all need to get experience but don't mislead those that are giving so much of themselves. If you are the producer than ignorance of the business is really no excuse. Study and understand the market you are trying to break into.
Take a look at all the films that have won awards at any of the major festivals. The low-end average budget is in the realm of several hundred thousand dollars, and the lowest I ever heard of was $30,000.
To return this to an audio topic. I talked to a festival organizer who informed me if the sound is crappy they absolutely don't even watch the whole picture. You can get away with some poorly lite, badly composed DV features but if the sound is junk you won't even get a full viewing. Something to keep in mind when planning your budget.
To Craig,
We don't mean to gang up on you but just point out that it's one thing to make movies with amatuers/students but when trying to solicite professionals you need to show some respect for the talent they have work hard to develop. Please don't be embarrassed (or angry), I believe you really didn't mean to offend anyone, but just made an honest mistake.
Great post David (referring to the longer one, althought the other one is fine too).
It was my (or other's I believe) intention to discourage anyone. Just trying to offer some insight into dealing with hard working people in the business. Also offer a little bit of reality, that I think 95% of people in here already understand, about the possibilities of "breaking into" the movie business. I truely admire the passion people like David bring to their projects.
What bothers me is the people that take advantage of those just starting out naivete. I have heard stories of promised distribution, pay at that back-end that just isn't gonna happen (my favorite is the line about how when their movie breaks the producer/writer/director is going to take all those who help him to Hollywood). If you are making a student film then go for it and be honest about it. We all need to get experience but don't mislead those that are giving so much of themselves. If you are the producer than ignorance of the business is really no excuse. Study and understand the market you are trying to break into.
Take a look at all the films that have won awards at any of the major festivals. The low-end average budget is in the realm of several hundred thousand dollars, and the lowest I ever heard of was $30,000.
To return this to an audio topic. I talked to a festival organizer who informed me if the sound is crappy they absolutely don't even watch the whole picture. You can get away with some poorly lite, badly composed DV features but if the sound is junk you won't even get a full viewing. Something to keep in mind when planning your budget.
To Craig,
We don't mean to gang up on you but just point out that it's one thing to make movies with amatuers/students but when trying to solicite professionals you need to show some respect for the talent they have work hard to develop. Please don't be embarrassed (or angry), I believe you really didn't mean to offend anyone, but just made an honest mistake.
MattC
Veteran
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
David, I hope to god you know that I wasn't ranting at you. My comments to you got wrapped inside an overall rant, which they shouldn't have. If there was any confusion on that, I apologize. I think what you're doing is absolutely amazing, I'm working on my first real short film and it's like a second job, I can't even conceive of doing a feature right now.
I am certain that with your tenacity and humility you will get your story told. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Best regards,
Matt
David, I hope to god you know that I wasn't ranting at you. My comments to you got wrapped inside an overall rant, which they shouldn't have. If there was any confusion on that, I apologize. I think what you're doing is absolutely amazing, I'm working on my first real short film and it's like a second job, I can't even conceive of doing a feature right now.
I am certain that with your tenacity and humility you will get your story told. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Best regards,
Matt
David_M_Payne
Well-known member
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
[quote author=wabbit link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#22 date=02/22/05 at 21:45:26]Great post David (referring to the longer one, although the other one is fine too).
It was my (or other's I believe) intention to discourage anyone. Just trying to offer some insight into dealing with hard working people in the business. Also offer a little bit of reality, that I think 95% of people in here already understand, about the possibilities of "breaking into" the movie business. I truly admire the passion people like David bring to their projects.
What bothers me is the people that take advantage of those just starting out naiveté. I have heard stories of promised distribution, pay at that back-end that just isn't gonna happen (my favorite is the line about how when their movie breaks the producer/writer/director is going to take all those who help him to Hollywood). If you are making a student film then go for it and be honest about it. We all need to get experience but don't mislead those that are giving so much of themselves. If you are the producer than ignorance of the business is really no excuse. Study and understand the market you are trying to break into.
Take a look at all the films that have won awards at any of the major festivals. The low-end average budget is in the realm of several hundred thousand dollars, and the lowest I ever heard of was $30,000.
To return this to an audio topic. I talked to a festival organizer who informed me if the sound is crappy they absolutely don't even watch the whole picture. You can get away with some poorly lite, badly composed DV features but if the sound is junk you won't even get a full viewing. Something to keep in mind when planning your budget...
[/quote]
Thanks wabbit, I have expanded my budget because of what I've learned here. I'm about $15,000.00 in now, so I only have to get another fifteen to reach the low end!
I will seek money for the budget, but we both know that that is often hard to come by, so I'm prepared to go it with the resources I am able to come up with on my own. I can only count on what I have, not on other people sharing my vision with me, so I have to have that view as the bedrock of making the movie. (I do have about $120,000 in equity in my house, but I will only tap into that if I get accepted into a good film festival, things look VERY PROMISING and that is the only way I can raise the money for converting the DV into film. Even then I will be loath to do it, as if it fails I'll be one of those guys that lives in a dingy apartment in his retirement because he blew his house on a dream that didn't pan out. Having been shuffled around as a kid between different families I wasn't even related to gave me a sense of insecurity that has stayed with me to this day. You couldn't begin to imagine how much having a place of my own means to me. So getting into my house equity and taking the chance of loosing it is the very last resort for me.) I do hope to find other financing, but nothing good in my life has ever come easily for me, so I don't count on money from other people now.
As for audio here is a list below of what I have or is on the way now to collect audio with. Timmy at EVS said that the first task is to get good audio at the shoots, as I can always polish it up in post, but I can't create good audio in post if I get crap audio in production on the set. I bought as good equipment as I could afford, and I think it will be alright for my first film. But I would appreciate any comments from you guys here as to anything else I may need audio wise that is not on my list or the post above. As for promising people a ride to Hollywood on my coat tails, I will never do that. I've had so many people let me down in life starting with my parents that I could never do that to someone else because I know just how much that hurts. I tell everyone involved that this is an Indie flick, and it is a tough road to travel to success with most people getting lost along the way. If I do well with the film, I WILL SHARE IN THE PROFITS, not because I have to, but because that is what I believe in, in a deeply philosophical way. Anyway here is what I have for audio now, your comments would be appreciated. (Yes I know that there are differences of opinion on some of this stuff, one guy likes this, another likes that, but in the end will it be good enough?)
After talking to Timmy the sound engineer at EVS I've ordered a pair of EW112-G2's, an ME-66/K6 shotgun combo as well as an ME-64 capsule for indoor work. I also got two pair of the Sennheiser HD280 pro headphones, one for the boompole operator and one for the guy monitoring the EW112's. In addition I got a 9' K-TEC boom pole with the coiled line inside to go with my GITZO 6' pole, as well as a another Lightwave windscreen for the ME-66 capsule. I can use the Lightwave windscreen I have for my AT897 on the ME-64. I already have a K-TEC K-SM mic holder for the AT897 that will work with the ME-66/64 mic. He recommended that I just work with the four channels of sound I'll have with the two DVX cameras and use some of the help from my buds at work who are into this project as well as the university and the community college kids I'll be getting, to monitor the sound.
Part of what I want to do with this film is to use it as a learning experience not only for myself, but also for people at the university and community college who will be working with me. I can't offer them pay, but I can offer them experience making a movie and food, food being something I wouldn't have thought of if I hadn't read all these threads here. I was thinking of the Marantz pmd670 for some audio work, but Timmy's recommendation is to stick with the camera audio because it's good audio and I won't have any timing problems that way matching up the audio with the video. That should do it for sound, and I have the AT897 as a backup incase I need it. If any of you can think of anything else that might be necessary please feel free to post it here. Thanks for all the help you guys, now I can work on finishing the script and lining up the talent for the movie.
David
[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#24 date=02/22/05 at 22:20:37]David, I hope to god you know that I wasn't ranting at you. My comments to you got wrapped inside an overall rant, which they shouldn't have. If there was any confusion on that, I apologize. I think what you're doing is absolutely amazing, I'm working on my first real short film and it's like a second job, I can't even conceive of doing a feature right now.
I am certain that with your tenacity and humility you will get your story told. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Best regards,
Matt
[/quote]
No sweat bud. I appreciate all the help I've gotten here and if I can think of anything I'll let you know. Wait, I just did! How about a critique on where I'm at now on the audio stuff?
David
[quote author=wabbit link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#22 date=02/22/05 at 21:45:26]Great post David (referring to the longer one, although the other one is fine too).
It was my (or other's I believe) intention to discourage anyone. Just trying to offer some insight into dealing with hard working people in the business. Also offer a little bit of reality, that I think 95% of people in here already understand, about the possibilities of "breaking into" the movie business. I truly admire the passion people like David bring to their projects.
What bothers me is the people that take advantage of those just starting out naiveté. I have heard stories of promised distribution, pay at that back-end that just isn't gonna happen (my favorite is the line about how when their movie breaks the producer/writer/director is going to take all those who help him to Hollywood). If you are making a student film then go for it and be honest about it. We all need to get experience but don't mislead those that are giving so much of themselves. If you are the producer than ignorance of the business is really no excuse. Study and understand the market you are trying to break into.
Take a look at all the films that have won awards at any of the major festivals. The low-end average budget is in the realm of several hundred thousand dollars, and the lowest I ever heard of was $30,000.
To return this to an audio topic. I talked to a festival organizer who informed me if the sound is crappy they absolutely don't even watch the whole picture. You can get away with some poorly lite, badly composed DV features but if the sound is junk you won't even get a full viewing. Something to keep in mind when planning your budget...
[/quote]
Thanks wabbit, I have expanded my budget because of what I've learned here. I'm about $15,000.00 in now, so I only have to get another fifteen to reach the low end!
I will seek money for the budget, but we both know that that is often hard to come by, so I'm prepared to go it with the resources I am able to come up with on my own. I can only count on what I have, not on other people sharing my vision with me, so I have to have that view as the bedrock of making the movie. (I do have about $120,000 in equity in my house, but I will only tap into that if I get accepted into a good film festival, things look VERY PROMISING and that is the only way I can raise the money for converting the DV into film. Even then I will be loath to do it, as if it fails I'll be one of those guys that lives in a dingy apartment in his retirement because he blew his house on a dream that didn't pan out. Having been shuffled around as a kid between different families I wasn't even related to gave me a sense of insecurity that has stayed with me to this day. You couldn't begin to imagine how much having a place of my own means to me. So getting into my house equity and taking the chance of loosing it is the very last resort for me.) I do hope to find other financing, but nothing good in my life has ever come easily for me, so I don't count on money from other people now.As for audio here is a list below of what I have or is on the way now to collect audio with. Timmy at EVS said that the first task is to get good audio at the shoots, as I can always polish it up in post, but I can't create good audio in post if I get crap audio in production on the set. I bought as good equipment as I could afford, and I think it will be alright for my first film. But I would appreciate any comments from you guys here as to anything else I may need audio wise that is not on my list or the post above. As for promising people a ride to Hollywood on my coat tails, I will never do that. I've had so many people let me down in life starting with my parents that I could never do that to someone else because I know just how much that hurts. I tell everyone involved that this is an Indie flick, and it is a tough road to travel to success with most people getting lost along the way. If I do well with the film, I WILL SHARE IN THE PROFITS, not because I have to, but because that is what I believe in, in a deeply philosophical way. Anyway here is what I have for audio now, your comments would be appreciated. (Yes I know that there are differences of opinion on some of this stuff, one guy likes this, another likes that, but in the end will it be good enough?)
After talking to Timmy the sound engineer at EVS I've ordered a pair of EW112-G2's, an ME-66/K6 shotgun combo as well as an ME-64 capsule for indoor work. I also got two pair of the Sennheiser HD280 pro headphones, one for the boompole operator and one for the guy monitoring the EW112's. In addition I got a 9' K-TEC boom pole with the coiled line inside to go with my GITZO 6' pole, as well as a another Lightwave windscreen for the ME-66 capsule. I can use the Lightwave windscreen I have for my AT897 on the ME-64. I already have a K-TEC K-SM mic holder for the AT897 that will work with the ME-66/64 mic. He recommended that I just work with the four channels of sound I'll have with the two DVX cameras and use some of the help from my buds at work who are into this project as well as the university and the community college kids I'll be getting, to monitor the sound.
Part of what I want to do with this film is to use it as a learning experience not only for myself, but also for people at the university and community college who will be working with me. I can't offer them pay, but I can offer them experience making a movie and food, food being something I wouldn't have thought of if I hadn't read all these threads here. I was thinking of the Marantz pmd670 for some audio work, but Timmy's recommendation is to stick with the camera audio because it's good audio and I won't have any timing problems that way matching up the audio with the video. That should do it for sound, and I have the AT897 as a backup incase I need it. If any of you can think of anything else that might be necessary please feel free to post it here. Thanks for all the help you guys, now I can work on finishing the script and lining up the talent for the movie.
David
[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#24 date=02/22/05 at 22:20:37]David, I hope to god you know that I wasn't ranting at you. My comments to you got wrapped inside an overall rant, which they shouldn't have. If there was any confusion on that, I apologize. I think what you're doing is absolutely amazing, I'm working on my first real short film and it's like a second job, I can't even conceive of doing a feature right now.
I am certain that with your tenacity and humility you will get your story told. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Best regards,
Matt
[/quote]
No sweat bud. I appreciate all the help I've gotten here and if I can think of anything I'll let you know. Wait, I just did! How about a critique on where I'm at now on the audio stuff?
David
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
Hi guys,
No, I am not embarrassed and I am not angry just a little bit misunderstood. I apologize for sounding vague and someone said patronizing but I will try to clarify my original post
My original post said this.
1. If you are in the Southern California area
I am working on this project with people all over the states and since audio is so important for this project and I live in Orange County, I wanted to find someone who lives around the area.
2. Have a complete post audio setup
This person could have the setup in their home. I have a studio in my home. I doubt if Todd AO would ever get involved in something like this even though that would be nice. I have no illusions that would ever happen.
3. If you are interested in working on a very special DVX feature length movie
I probably could have chosen my words more carefully. I should have said "a very uniquely produced DVX feature length movie." It is feature length.
4. For free
That is one of the criteria for working on this picture. It is part of the experiment. Will the film ever make money? I doubt it. Will anyone ever get to participate in any profits if it does? That is a very iffy but maybe.
I would advise professionals who work in this field for a living not to get involved. If you can't afford to work free then don't do it.
There are no promises. Even big budget movies sometimes fail but at least you are paid to work on most of those.
I understand that.
So just to be clear on this point and as honest as I can: You will not get paid for working on this movie.
Don't assume you will make great connections through this project.
At least do not plan on it. I have met all kinds of interesting people via the Internet while working on this project. None of them are rich or famous as far as I know.
5. You are very talented
If you still want to work on this movie, I want very talented people doing the sound. I agree that sound is more than half the picture. It takes a very talented person to make a great sound track.
If you are making a living at making feature film sound tracks, you are a very talented person.
I believe there are others out there in cyber land who are very talented that want to give it a shot.
Let me be honest here. You are being exploited and no one should have to work for free.
I explained as clearly and as candid as I could to the one person who called about the amount of work. I explained to him my formula I use to estimate post sound work. I think he understood that. I said three months if he worked on it by himself if everything went perfect. It never goes perfect. I think he got my point. Post sound takes seemingly forever. I also told him he should do it when he isn't doing his regular job.
6. You are creative
Basically, the same thing could be said about creativity as I said about talent.
7. You have a resume
I want a resume to see what they have done in the past. I should have pointed out that this doesn't necessarily or implicitly mean it has to be a resume of all your feature film projects. It could be your resume with all the bookstores or lawyer offices or political offices you worked at. I just wanted to see what work experience you have.
8. You have references
I want to be able to find out what your friends think about you and how you work with other people
Boy did I start alot of discussion. Did not mean to do that but it was fun to read the posts.
I only check this thread a few times a week.
A few more tid bits of facts. There is no theatrical distribution contracts at all. There is not even a gaurantee that this movie will be finished ever. The movie makers have no illussions that this is going to be a block buster movie. I have no big Hollywood connections.
I am just a guy who volunteered to supervise the making of this odd ball movie.
An experienced professional would be nice but not expected.
I made no gaurantee about anything except to say the experience would be rewarding. I suppose that is up to the individual to determine for themselves.
So far for me the experience has been frustrating at times but over all very rewarding. That all I mean about it being very rewarding.
Hope this clarifies things. Now I'm going to read this thread more often, I curious to see what you guys have to say.
Craig
Hi guys,
No, I am not embarrassed and I am not angry just a little bit misunderstood. I apologize for sounding vague and someone said patronizing but I will try to clarify my original post
My original post said this.
1. If you are in the Southern California area
I am working on this project with people all over the states and since audio is so important for this project and I live in Orange County, I wanted to find someone who lives around the area.
2. Have a complete post audio setup
This person could have the setup in their home. I have a studio in my home. I doubt if Todd AO would ever get involved in something like this even though that would be nice. I have no illusions that would ever happen.
3. If you are interested in working on a very special DVX feature length movie
I probably could have chosen my words more carefully. I should have said "a very uniquely produced DVX feature length movie." It is feature length.
4. For free
That is one of the criteria for working on this picture. It is part of the experiment. Will the film ever make money? I doubt it. Will anyone ever get to participate in any profits if it does? That is a very iffy but maybe.
I would advise professionals who work in this field for a living not to get involved. If you can't afford to work free then don't do it.
There are no promises. Even big budget movies sometimes fail but at least you are paid to work on most of those.
I understand that.
So just to be clear on this point and as honest as I can: You will not get paid for working on this movie.
Don't assume you will make great connections through this project.
At least do not plan on it. I have met all kinds of interesting people via the Internet while working on this project. None of them are rich or famous as far as I know.
5. You are very talented
If you still want to work on this movie, I want very talented people doing the sound. I agree that sound is more than half the picture. It takes a very talented person to make a great sound track.
If you are making a living at making feature film sound tracks, you are a very talented person.
I believe there are others out there in cyber land who are very talented that want to give it a shot.
Let me be honest here. You are being exploited and no one should have to work for free.
I explained as clearly and as candid as I could to the one person who called about the amount of work. I explained to him my formula I use to estimate post sound work. I think he understood that. I said three months if he worked on it by himself if everything went perfect. It never goes perfect. I think he got my point. Post sound takes seemingly forever. I also told him he should do it when he isn't doing his regular job.
6. You are creative
Basically, the same thing could be said about creativity as I said about talent.
7. You have a resume
I want a resume to see what they have done in the past. I should have pointed out that this doesn't necessarily or implicitly mean it has to be a resume of all your feature film projects. It could be your resume with all the bookstores or lawyer offices or political offices you worked at. I just wanted to see what work experience you have.
8. You have references
I want to be able to find out what your friends think about you and how you work with other people
Boy did I start alot of discussion. Did not mean to do that but it was fun to read the posts.
I only check this thread a few times a week.
A few more tid bits of facts. There is no theatrical distribution contracts at all. There is not even a gaurantee that this movie will be finished ever. The movie makers have no illussions that this is going to be a block buster movie. I have no big Hollywood connections.
I am just a guy who volunteered to supervise the making of this odd ball movie.
An experienced professional would be nice but not expected.
I made no gaurantee about anything except to say the experience would be rewarding. I suppose that is up to the individual to determine for themselves.
So far for me the experience has been frustrating at times but over all very rewarding. That all I mean about it being very rewarding.
Hope this clarifies things. Now I'm going to read this thread more often, I curious to see what you guys have to say.
Craig
MattC
Veteran
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
Dave,
I think you are going in the right direction regarding sound, my only thought is your underlying concept of how you are acquiring gear, although it may be too late to mention this. The prevelant thought on this board, and others, is to purchase gear. Sometimes this is a good thing. I'm purchasing my own gear and, in the overall scheme of things I, like you, aren't really spending THAT much on it comparatively. However I, like many here, am not buying gear for one movie. I'm buying it because I find this to be a neat hobby and hey, there's always porn...
Seriously, if I were budgeting for one film, I would think long and hard about renting, because if you do it right, often times you can get the gear AND a tech for the same money. Now this presupposes that your able to shoot the movie full time (principal photography) and will only be filming for a couple of weeks. If that's the case, for what you'll spend on audio gear, you could hire a sound guy who comes with his own gear. Of course the same goes for gaffers or DPs. In fact if I were making one film, on a full time schedule, I wouldn't buy anything, I'd hire the best folks I could who had the equipment I wanted available to them.
The same can be said for post audio. I can tell you how to set up a protools rig or a Nuendo rig in your house, but to be honest to do it right will cost you a few grand - at least. For one film, you'd probably be better off talking to guys like Dave and Wabbit and saying "hey, I've got x-thousand dollars, what can we do?"
But, if you are shooting part-time and your production schedule will drag out over months, then perhaps purchasing is your best bet. If the equipment is well taken care of, you could sell it at a relatively minor loss and consider it a cheap long term rental and then pump that money back into post.
You mention using this as a learning exercise. I can relate to that, that's exactly what I'm doing, albeit on a lesser scale, and think that this is the best learning environment you could place yourself in. However, I really wouldn't risk my house over it. If your finished product is that good, and it very well may be, others will pay for a film print. If not, you still made a feature film, how many people can say that? Take what you learned and move on.
One last point. In my business I've used a number of interns - many unpaid. However, I had an arrangement with the University to grade them and they would earn a number of credits for having worked for me. This was very easy to set up, like one phone call. Have you considered doing something like that with your school contacts? Then you actually would be paying them - an amount equivalent to what they WOULD have had to spend had they had to pay for the course to earn those same amount of credits. Just a thought.
Matt
Dave,
I think you are going in the right direction regarding sound, my only thought is your underlying concept of how you are acquiring gear, although it may be too late to mention this. The prevelant thought on this board, and others, is to purchase gear. Sometimes this is a good thing. I'm purchasing my own gear and, in the overall scheme of things I, like you, aren't really spending THAT much on it comparatively. However I, like many here, am not buying gear for one movie. I'm buying it because I find this to be a neat hobby and hey, there's always porn...
Seriously, if I were budgeting for one film, I would think long and hard about renting, because if you do it right, often times you can get the gear AND a tech for the same money. Now this presupposes that your able to shoot the movie full time (principal photography) and will only be filming for a couple of weeks. If that's the case, for what you'll spend on audio gear, you could hire a sound guy who comes with his own gear. Of course the same goes for gaffers or DPs. In fact if I were making one film, on a full time schedule, I wouldn't buy anything, I'd hire the best folks I could who had the equipment I wanted available to them.
The same can be said for post audio. I can tell you how to set up a protools rig or a Nuendo rig in your house, but to be honest to do it right will cost you a few grand - at least. For one film, you'd probably be better off talking to guys like Dave and Wabbit and saying "hey, I've got x-thousand dollars, what can we do?"
But, if you are shooting part-time and your production schedule will drag out over months, then perhaps purchasing is your best bet. If the equipment is well taken care of, you could sell it at a relatively minor loss and consider it a cheap long term rental and then pump that money back into post.
You mention using this as a learning exercise. I can relate to that, that's exactly what I'm doing, albeit on a lesser scale, and think that this is the best learning environment you could place yourself in. However, I really wouldn't risk my house over it. If your finished product is that good, and it very well may be, others will pay for a film print. If not, you still made a feature film, how many people can say that? Take what you learned and move on.
One last point. In my business I've used a number of interns - many unpaid. However, I had an arrangement with the University to grade them and they would earn a number of credits for having worked for me. This was very easy to set up, like one phone call. Have you considered doing something like that with your school contacts? Then you actually would be paying them - an amount equivalent to what they WOULD have had to spend had they had to pay for the course to earn those same amount of credits. Just a thought.
Matt
David_M_Payne
Well-known member
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#27 date=02/23/05 at 07:26:36]Dave,
I think you are going in the right direction regarding sound, my only thought is your underlying concept of how you are acquiring gear, although it may be too late to mention this. The prevalent thought on this board, and others, is to purchase gear. Sometimes this is a good thing. I'm purchasing my own gear and, in the overall scheme of things I, like you, aren't really spending THAT much on it comparatively. However I, like many here, am not buying gear for one movie. I'm buying it because I find this to be a neat hobby and hey, there's always porn...
Seriously, if I were budgeting for one film, I would think long and hard about renting, because if you do it right, often times you can get the gear AND a tech for the same money. Now this presupposes that your able to shoot the movie full time (principal photography) and will only be filming for a couple of weeks. If that's the case, for what you'll spend on audio gear, you could hire a sound guy who comes with his own gear. Of course the same goes for gaffers or DPs. In fact if I were making one film, on a full time schedule, I wouldn't buy anything, I'd hire the best folks I could who had the equipment I wanted available to them.
The same can be said for post audio. I can tell you how to set up a protools rig or a Nuendo rig in your house, but to be honest to do it right will cost you a few grand - at least. For one film, you'd probably be better off talking to guys like Dave and Wabbit and saying "hey, I've got x-thousand dollars, what can we do?"
But, if you are shooting part-time and your production schedule will drag out over months, then perhaps purchasing is your best bet. If the equipment is well taken care of, you could sell it at a relatively minor loss and consider it a cheap long term rental and then pump that money back into post.
You mention using this as a learning exercise. I can relate to that, that's exactly what I'm doing, albeit on a lesser scale, and think that this is the best learning environment you could place yourself in. However, I really wouldn't risk my house over it. If your finished product is that good, and it very well may be, others will pay for a film print. If not, you still made a feature film, how many people can say that? Take what you learned and move on.
One last point. In my business I've used a number of interns - many unpaid. However, I had an arrangement with the University to grade them and they would earn a number of credits for having worked for me. This was very easy to set up, like one phone call. Have you considered doing something like that with your school contacts? Then you actually would be paying them - an amount equivalent to what they WOULD have had to spend had they had to pay for the course to earn those same amount of credits. Just a thought.
Matt[/quote]
Thanks Mat. OK what is a "protools rig or a Nuendo rig"? Just tell me, we can worry about setting one up later if needed but for now I'm curious. (See, this is a great place to learn stuff on the movie biz.) I work full time and I'm taking a class on film and directing at the Community college now, and over the years I've taken a few film classes so I have some ideas on directing and acting. (I will be the lead actor in Holy War. I've been rehearsing the role in my head for over two years now. I've also shot some DV of myself and I have good presence so this isn't just a vanity project, I can do the part.) Shooting the film will be done for the most part on my days off, at night and vacation days in the summer, so renting is not a good option. That schedule works for me and for most of the people involved in the movie, especially the college kids.
Great idea about seeing if I can get credit for the kids by working on this film. I'll see what can be done today when I talk with my professor.
I write a lot of short stories, have done a few novellas, so material for films is not my problem, time and talent are now that I have the equipment. My goal is to get this film in the can and use it as a spring board out of my current job into what I really want to do, write, act, direct and produce films. If that doesn’t work, I still have a good paying but boring job, house etc.
I agree with you about using the house, it would be a VERY last resort, and if there is enough interest on the movie finding money to go from DV/DVD to film should not be a problem at that stage.
As for the equipment from what I've learned the stuff I have now is good enough to do the work on this movie. That’s why I bought it. If I'm successful then the next time I should have access to more money and better equipment for some of my other tales. (You can see a few on my web site, and if you type my full name into Yahoo's search engine you can find more examples of my writing. I must warn you that I'm a strong agnostic, well known on the web for it, and my web work is not to well received by those that are fundamentalist in their religious beliefs. But that facet of my life is only a part of my body of written work, and not germane to this project outside of the elements on the god/religion biz in the story.) But yes, I didn't buy this stuff for just one film, I have more tales to tell now than I will ever live long enough to see done, so the equipment will not just sit around after Holy War is done. At this point I look at this as a way to get from point A, where I am now, to point B, where I want to be. If I get to where I want to go great. If I don't it will have been one hell of a learning experience and a lot of fun. And I still have my boring, well paid job.
And then there is always porn as you pointed out. I live in an area that has legal prostitution, lots of topless clubs and a university and community college with hot co-eds, some of whom these days may want to do that just for the fun and to shock their parents etc if some current news stories can be believed. (Girls have changed since my first days in college back in the 70's.
) By the way Holy War is going to be a hard R because of some sex scenes, one that is in the story on the web now, and one that is only in the script now, and Reno has lots of talent in that area.
Thanks for the support, and when the time comes for post, I'll see what I have around here as far as pro talent for sound and video, use the college talent and my buddy Gary who does this for a living and perhaps even some of you guys here. And I will have some money, not a lot, but perhaps it will be enough to pay for the pro help. And I will be offering a cut of the profits if there are any, also.
So in the end making Holy War is not my only desire film wise, it is just my starting point. My other tales will need a lot more in the way of film crew, talent, special effects etc and hopefully Holy War will be my entry card. If not there is always porn…
Well I guess we have hijacked Craig's thread "DVX feature film needs sweetening," long enough. The thread where Craig is trying to find free pro talent for someone else's project that he believes in for nothing and is offering nothing for it.
David
[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#27 date=02/23/05 at 07:26:36]Dave,
I think you are going in the right direction regarding sound, my only thought is your underlying concept of how you are acquiring gear, although it may be too late to mention this. The prevalent thought on this board, and others, is to purchase gear. Sometimes this is a good thing. I'm purchasing my own gear and, in the overall scheme of things I, like you, aren't really spending THAT much on it comparatively. However I, like many here, am not buying gear for one movie. I'm buying it because I find this to be a neat hobby and hey, there's always porn...
Seriously, if I were budgeting for one film, I would think long and hard about renting, because if you do it right, often times you can get the gear AND a tech for the same money. Now this presupposes that your able to shoot the movie full time (principal photography) and will only be filming for a couple of weeks. If that's the case, for what you'll spend on audio gear, you could hire a sound guy who comes with his own gear. Of course the same goes for gaffers or DPs. In fact if I were making one film, on a full time schedule, I wouldn't buy anything, I'd hire the best folks I could who had the equipment I wanted available to them.
The same can be said for post audio. I can tell you how to set up a protools rig or a Nuendo rig in your house, but to be honest to do it right will cost you a few grand - at least. For one film, you'd probably be better off talking to guys like Dave and Wabbit and saying "hey, I've got x-thousand dollars, what can we do?"
But, if you are shooting part-time and your production schedule will drag out over months, then perhaps purchasing is your best bet. If the equipment is well taken care of, you could sell it at a relatively minor loss and consider it a cheap long term rental and then pump that money back into post.
You mention using this as a learning exercise. I can relate to that, that's exactly what I'm doing, albeit on a lesser scale, and think that this is the best learning environment you could place yourself in. However, I really wouldn't risk my house over it. If your finished product is that good, and it very well may be, others will pay for a film print. If not, you still made a feature film, how many people can say that? Take what you learned and move on.
One last point. In my business I've used a number of interns - many unpaid. However, I had an arrangement with the University to grade them and they would earn a number of credits for having worked for me. This was very easy to set up, like one phone call. Have you considered doing something like that with your school contacts? Then you actually would be paying them - an amount equivalent to what they WOULD have had to spend had they had to pay for the course to earn those same amount of credits. Just a thought.
Matt[/quote]
Thanks Mat. OK what is a "protools rig or a Nuendo rig"? Just tell me, we can worry about setting one up later if needed but for now I'm curious. (See, this is a great place to learn stuff on the movie biz.) I work full time and I'm taking a class on film and directing at the Community college now, and over the years I've taken a few film classes so I have some ideas on directing and acting. (I will be the lead actor in Holy War. I've been rehearsing the role in my head for over two years now. I've also shot some DV of myself and I have good presence so this isn't just a vanity project, I can do the part.) Shooting the film will be done for the most part on my days off, at night and vacation days in the summer, so renting is not a good option. That schedule works for me and for most of the people involved in the movie, especially the college kids.
Great idea about seeing if I can get credit for the kids by working on this film. I'll see what can be done today when I talk with my professor.
I write a lot of short stories, have done a few novellas, so material for films is not my problem, time and talent are now that I have the equipment. My goal is to get this film in the can and use it as a spring board out of my current job into what I really want to do, write, act, direct and produce films. If that doesn’t work, I still have a good paying but boring job, house etc.
I agree with you about using the house, it would be a VERY last resort, and if there is enough interest on the movie finding money to go from DV/DVD to film should not be a problem at that stage.
As for the equipment from what I've learned the stuff I have now is good enough to do the work on this movie. That’s why I bought it. If I'm successful then the next time I should have access to more money and better equipment for some of my other tales. (You can see a few on my web site, and if you type my full name into Yahoo's search engine you can find more examples of my writing. I must warn you that I'm a strong agnostic, well known on the web for it, and my web work is not to well received by those that are fundamentalist in their religious beliefs. But that facet of my life is only a part of my body of written work, and not germane to this project outside of the elements on the god/religion biz in the story.) But yes, I didn't buy this stuff for just one film, I have more tales to tell now than I will ever live long enough to see done, so the equipment will not just sit around after Holy War is done. At this point I look at this as a way to get from point A, where I am now, to point B, where I want to be. If I get to where I want to go great. If I don't it will have been one hell of a learning experience and a lot of fun. And I still have my boring, well paid job.
And then there is always porn as you pointed out. I live in an area that has legal prostitution, lots of topless clubs and a university and community college with hot co-eds, some of whom these days may want to do that just for the fun and to shock their parents etc if some current news stories can be believed. (Girls have changed since my first days in college back in the 70's.
) By the way Holy War is going to be a hard R because of some sex scenes, one that is in the story on the web now, and one that is only in the script now, and Reno has lots of talent in that area. Thanks for the support, and when the time comes for post, I'll see what I have around here as far as pro talent for sound and video, use the college talent and my buddy Gary who does this for a living and perhaps even some of you guys here. And I will have some money, not a lot, but perhaps it will be enough to pay for the pro help. And I will be offering a cut of the profits if there are any, also.
So in the end making Holy War is not my only desire film wise, it is just my starting point. My other tales will need a lot more in the way of film crew, talent, special effects etc and hopefully Holy War will be my entry card. If not there is always porn…
Well I guess we have hijacked Craig's thread "DVX feature film needs sweetening," long enough. The thread where Craig is trying to find free pro talent for someone else's project that he believes in for nothing and is offering nothing for it.
David
Dave_Fisk
Well-known member
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
[quote author=ckalan1 link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#26 date=02/22/05 at 23:11:07]Hi guys,
No, I am not embarrassed and I am not angry just a little bit misunderstood. I apologize for sounding vague and someone said patronizing but I will try to clarify my original post
My original post said this.
1. If you are in the Southern California area
I am working on this project with people all over the states and since audio is so important for this project and I live in Orange County, I wanted to find someone who lives around the area.
2. Have a complete post audio setup
This person could have the setup in their home. I have a studio in my home. I doubt if Todd AO would ever get involved in something like this even though that would be nice. I have no illusions that would ever happen.
3. If you are interested in working on a very special DVX feature length movie
I probably could have chosen my words more carefully. I should have said "a very uniquely produced DVX feature length movie." It is feature length.
4. For free
That is one of the criteria for working on this picture. It is part of the experiment. Will the film ever make money? I doubt it. Will anyone ever get to participate in any profits if it does? That is a very iffy but maybe.
I would advise professionals who work in this field for a living not to get involved. If you can't afford to work free then don't do it.
There are no promises. Even big budget movies sometimes fail but at least you are paid to work on most of those.
I understand that.
So just to be clear on this point and as honest as I can: You will not get paid for working on this movie.
Don't assume you will make great connections through this project.
At least do not plan on it. I have met all kinds of interesting people via the Internet while working on this project. None of them are rich or famous as far as I know.
5. You are very talented
If you still want to work on this movie, I want very talented people doing the sound. I agree that sound is more than half the picture. It takes a very talented person to make a great sound track.
If you are making a living at making feature film sound tracks, you are a very talented person.
I believe there are others out there in cyber land who are very talented that want to give it a shot.
Let me be honest here. You are being exploited and no one should have to work for free.
I explained as clearly and as candid as I could to the one person who called about the amount of work. I explained to him my formula I use to estimate post sound work. I think he understood that. I said three months if he worked on it by himself if everything went perfect. It never goes perfect. I think he got my point. Post sound takes seemingly forever. I also told him he should do it when he isn't doing his regular job.
6. You are creative
Basically, the same thing could be said about creativity as I said about talent.
7. You have a resume
I want a resume to see what they have done in the past. I should have pointed out that this doesn't necessarily or implicitly mean it has to be a resume of all your feature film projects. It could be your resume with all the bookstores or lawyer offices or political offices you worked at. I just wanted to see what work experience you have.
8. You have references
I want to be able to find out what your friends think about you and how you work with other people
Boy did I start alot of discussion. Did not mean to do that but it was fun to read the posts.
I only check this thread a few times a week.
A few more tid bits of facts. There is no theatrical distribution contracts at all. There is not even a gaurantee that this movie will be finished ever. The movie makers have no illussions that this is going to be a block buster movie. I have no big Hollywood connections.
I am just a guy who volunteered to supervise the making of this odd ball movie.
An experienced professional would be nice but not expected.
I made no gaurantee about anything except to say the experience would be rewarding. I suppose that is up to the individual to determine for themselves.
So far for me the experience has been frustrating at times but over all very rewarding. That all I mean about it being very rewarding.
Hope this clarifies things. Now I'm going to read this thread more often, I curious to see what you guys have to say.
Craig
[/quote]
But see, you are contradicting yourself. You say you don't care if you get someone who is not professional, but you then you say you want a professional with a resume and references. If you don't have professional experience, how are you going to have a resume and references? In your original post, you mentioned that it was rewarding, but now you are saying it's not. Who in the world would want to work on this?
-Dave
[quote author=ckalan1 link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#26 date=02/22/05 at 23:11:07]Hi guys,
No, I am not embarrassed and I am not angry just a little bit misunderstood. I apologize for sounding vague and someone said patronizing but I will try to clarify my original post
My original post said this.
1. If you are in the Southern California area
I am working on this project with people all over the states and since audio is so important for this project and I live in Orange County, I wanted to find someone who lives around the area.
2. Have a complete post audio setup
This person could have the setup in their home. I have a studio in my home. I doubt if Todd AO would ever get involved in something like this even though that would be nice. I have no illusions that would ever happen.
3. If you are interested in working on a very special DVX feature length movie
I probably could have chosen my words more carefully. I should have said "a very uniquely produced DVX feature length movie." It is feature length.
4. For free
That is one of the criteria for working on this picture. It is part of the experiment. Will the film ever make money? I doubt it. Will anyone ever get to participate in any profits if it does? That is a very iffy but maybe.
I would advise professionals who work in this field for a living not to get involved. If you can't afford to work free then don't do it.
There are no promises. Even big budget movies sometimes fail but at least you are paid to work on most of those.
I understand that.
So just to be clear on this point and as honest as I can: You will not get paid for working on this movie.
Don't assume you will make great connections through this project.
At least do not plan on it. I have met all kinds of interesting people via the Internet while working on this project. None of them are rich or famous as far as I know.
5. You are very talented
If you still want to work on this movie, I want very talented people doing the sound. I agree that sound is more than half the picture. It takes a very talented person to make a great sound track.
If you are making a living at making feature film sound tracks, you are a very talented person.
I believe there are others out there in cyber land who are very talented that want to give it a shot.
Let me be honest here. You are being exploited and no one should have to work for free.
I explained as clearly and as candid as I could to the one person who called about the amount of work. I explained to him my formula I use to estimate post sound work. I think he understood that. I said three months if he worked on it by himself if everything went perfect. It never goes perfect. I think he got my point. Post sound takes seemingly forever. I also told him he should do it when he isn't doing his regular job.
6. You are creative
Basically, the same thing could be said about creativity as I said about talent.
7. You have a resume
I want a resume to see what they have done in the past. I should have pointed out that this doesn't necessarily or implicitly mean it has to be a resume of all your feature film projects. It could be your resume with all the bookstores or lawyer offices or political offices you worked at. I just wanted to see what work experience you have.
8. You have references
I want to be able to find out what your friends think about you and how you work with other people
Boy did I start alot of discussion. Did not mean to do that but it was fun to read the posts.
I only check this thread a few times a week.
A few more tid bits of facts. There is no theatrical distribution contracts at all. There is not even a gaurantee that this movie will be finished ever. The movie makers have no illussions that this is going to be a block buster movie. I have no big Hollywood connections.
I am just a guy who volunteered to supervise the making of this odd ball movie.
An experienced professional would be nice but not expected.
I made no gaurantee about anything except to say the experience would be rewarding. I suppose that is up to the individual to determine for themselves.
So far for me the experience has been frustrating at times but over all very rewarding. That all I mean about it being very rewarding.
Hope this clarifies things. Now I'm going to read this thread more often, I curious to see what you guys have to say.
Craig
[/quote]
But see, you are contradicting yourself. You say you don't care if you get someone who is not professional, but you then you say you want a professional with a resume and references. If you don't have professional experience, how are you going to have a resume and references? In your original post, you mentioned that it was rewarding, but now you are saying it's not. Who in the world would want to work on this?
-Dave
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
Dave,
I don't think there is any contradiction. I don't mean for there to be one. This is point number 7.
7. You have a resume
I want a resume to see what they have done in the past.
I should have pointed out that this doesn't necessarily or implicitly mean it has to be a resume of all your feature film projects.
It could be your resume with all the bookstores or lawyer offices or political offices you worked at. I just wanted to see what work experience you have.
I want to get a feel for your work experience regardless of whether or not you have anyfilm work exprerience.
I am not asking or soliciting Post Production Audio Professionals to work on this project. My original post never asked for a professional.
I hope that is clear.
If I were looking for a post audio professional I would have called a studio directly. And If I wanted a film school setting I could have used the one where I worked. If a professional wants to work on this that is their choice. There are certain guidlelines for this project and some folks obviously can not get involved and that is understandable.
If you have any question regarding this project you call me and I explain as much as I can.
Craig 714 538-2484
Dave,
I don't think there is any contradiction. I don't mean for there to be one. This is point number 7.
7. You have a resume
I want a resume to see what they have done in the past.
I should have pointed out that this doesn't necessarily or implicitly mean it has to be a resume of all your feature film projects.
It could be your resume with all the bookstores or lawyer offices or political offices you worked at. I just wanted to see what work experience you have.
I want to get a feel for your work experience regardless of whether or not you have anyfilm work exprerience.
I am not asking or soliciting Post Production Audio Professionals to work on this project. My original post never asked for a professional.
I hope that is clear.
If I were looking for a post audio professional I would have called a studio directly. And If I wanted a film school setting I could have used the one where I worked. If a professional wants to work on this that is their choice. There are certain guidlelines for this project and some folks obviously can not get involved and that is understandable.
If you have any question regarding this project you call me and I explain as much as I can.
Craig 714 538-2484
Dave_Fisk
Well-known member
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
Well then, your post is addressing anyone who has ever had a job for an extensive period of time, because if you have, you are a professional of some sort.
Since you posted in the audio forum, and were looking for talented and creative professionals, one can only assume you are talking about sound people.
Look, we are just beating a dead horse, now.
I hope you do find someone to work on your project. Try talking to the people at Danetracks. That's where I interned, and when I was there, they had the interns working on free projects, but they were usually shorts.
-Dave
Well then, your post is addressing anyone who has ever had a job for an extensive period of time, because if you have, you are a professional of some sort.
Since you posted in the audio forum, and were looking for talented and creative professionals, one can only assume you are talking about sound people.
Look, we are just beating a dead horse, now.
I hope you do find someone to work on your project. Try talking to the people at Danetracks. That's where I interned, and when I was there, they had the interns working on free projects, but they were usually shorts.
-Dave
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
LOL, You all are making a big mistake not wanting to jump on a project like this. I don't recall seeing any of you DVX members at the Oscars.
The things he's NOT telling you, you don't need to know unless you plan to work on the project. He's looking for someone that will do what he/she says and one that cares about his work and not just about the money. To many people SAY they can do this and that but when it comes down to doing it - they don't or can't do it.
All I've seen in this post is EXTREMELY superficial people with posts that sound like little temper tantrums. "Work for FREE!!! Who the hell are you to ask me to work for FREE." Well, what the hell else are you doing? I know, I know, you're all big time sound people working on this big project...I hear a lot of people with answers like that only to find out they're sitting at home doing nothing or just playing around with their skills trying to learn more things rather then to stoop so low as to work for free. God forbid. Well, why not practice on something that would be worth while. Someone else's feature. It's not like anyone can't use more credits...If you even have any now.
I can only imagine the responses that this post will generate but the truth hurts and I know I will get bashed for this post. Probably from the same people that bashed the original poster.
Here is what you need to ask yourself...If you're so good that people need to pay YOU and people are knocking down your door to have you work on their film....THEN WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING ON THIS board? I think we already know the answer to that one.
I'm in Craig...I don't care what it pays. It can only benefit me to have more work on my list of credits and it's better than sitting at home pretending I'm working because I'm too good to work for free. At least I'm working and there will be a verifiable result from my work.
LOL, You all are making a big mistake not wanting to jump on a project like this. I don't recall seeing any of you DVX members at the Oscars.
The things he's NOT telling you, you don't need to know unless you plan to work on the project. He's looking for someone that will do what he/she says and one that cares about his work and not just about the money. To many people SAY they can do this and that but when it comes down to doing it - they don't or can't do it.
All I've seen in this post is EXTREMELY superficial people with posts that sound like little temper tantrums. "Work for FREE!!! Who the hell are you to ask me to work for FREE." Well, what the hell else are you doing? I know, I know, you're all big time sound people working on this big project...I hear a lot of people with answers like that only to find out they're sitting at home doing nothing or just playing around with their skills trying to learn more things rather then to stoop so low as to work for free. God forbid. Well, why not practice on something that would be worth while. Someone else's feature. It's not like anyone can't use more credits...If you even have any now.
I can only imagine the responses that this post will generate but the truth hurts and I know I will get bashed for this post. Probably from the same people that bashed the original poster.
Here is what you need to ask yourself...If you're so good that people need to pay YOU and people are knocking down your door to have you work on their film....THEN WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING ON THIS board? I think we already know the answer to that one.
I'm in Craig...I don't care what it pays. It can only benefit me to have more work on my list of credits and it's better than sitting at home pretending I'm working because I'm too good to work for free. At least I'm working and there will be a verifiable result from my work.
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
[quote author=nsfilms link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=30#32 date=02/23/05 at 15:01:47]LOL, You all are making a big mistake not wanting to jump on a project like this. I don't recall seeing any of you DVX members at the Oscars.
The things he's NOT telling you, you don't need to know unless you plan to work on the project. He's looking for someone that will do what he/she says and one that cares about his work and not just about the money. To many people SAY they can do this and that but when it comes down to doing it - they don't or can't do it.
All I've seen in this post is EXTREMELY superficial people with posts that sound like little temper tantrums. "Work for FREE!!! Who the hell are you to ask me to work for FREE." Well, what the hell else are you doing? I know, I know, you're all big time sound people working on this big project...I hear a lot of people with answers like that only to find out they're sitting at home doing nothing or just playing around with their skills trying to learn more things rather then to stoop so low as to work for free. God forbid. Well, why not practice on something that would be worth while. Someone else's feature. It's not like anyone can't use more credits...If you even have any now.
I can only imagine the responses that this post will generate but the truth hurts and I know I will get bashed for this post. Probably from the same people that bashed the original poster.
Here is what you need to ask yourself...If you're so good that people need to pay YOU and people are knocking down your door to have you work on their film....THEN WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING ON THIS board? I think we already know the answer to that one.
I'm in Craig...I don't care what it pays. It can only benefit me to have more work on my list of credits and it's better than sitting at home pretending I'm working because I'm too good to work for free. At least I'm working and there will be a verifiable result from my work.[/quote]
Well, I didn't want to say it.... but you did. My thoughts exactly.
craig z
[quote author=nsfilms link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=30#32 date=02/23/05 at 15:01:47]LOL, You all are making a big mistake not wanting to jump on a project like this. I don't recall seeing any of you DVX members at the Oscars.
The things he's NOT telling you, you don't need to know unless you plan to work on the project. He's looking for someone that will do what he/she says and one that cares about his work and not just about the money. To many people SAY they can do this and that but when it comes down to doing it - they don't or can't do it.
All I've seen in this post is EXTREMELY superficial people with posts that sound like little temper tantrums. "Work for FREE!!! Who the hell are you to ask me to work for FREE." Well, what the hell else are you doing? I know, I know, you're all big time sound people working on this big project...I hear a lot of people with answers like that only to find out they're sitting at home doing nothing or just playing around with their skills trying to learn more things rather then to stoop so low as to work for free. God forbid. Well, why not practice on something that would be worth while. Someone else's feature. It's not like anyone can't use more credits...If you even have any now.
I can only imagine the responses that this post will generate but the truth hurts and I know I will get bashed for this post. Probably from the same people that bashed the original poster.
Here is what you need to ask yourself...If you're so good that people need to pay YOU and people are knocking down your door to have you work on their film....THEN WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING ON THIS board? I think we already know the answer to that one.
I'm in Craig...I don't care what it pays. It can only benefit me to have more work on my list of credits and it's better than sitting at home pretending I'm working because I'm too good to work for free. At least I'm working and there will be a verifiable result from my work.[/quote]
Well, I didn't want to say it.... but you did. My thoughts exactly.
craig z
Dave_Fisk
Well-known member
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
^^^^^
So, by that logic, If doctors really love what they do, should they not get paid? Should they work over 80 hours a week just because it makes them look good for no pay? Should Tom Brady not get paid to play football, just because he loves the game?
It's people like you that make it harder for the rest of us to make a living at this. Some of us ARE working. How is it a big mistake to not want to get taken advantage of? If you want to whore yourself out, go for it. Have fun. By working for free you are telling people that it's ok not to pay for quality work....AND THEN, once these people go to pay for someone, they don't want to pay much at all because they are used to people like you who don't care.
You are sadly mistaken about the state of affairs with most people on here. We ALL work. Hell, I'm starting a feature (that pays) right now. I also work as a product specialist for extra income. Whereas I am a freelance sound designer, I've only been at it for a year, so I'm not so swamped with work that I can live off of it. However, for me to work for free is to take 10 steps back when I struggle every day to take a step forward. Some of us have already done the free thing. We don't need to do anymore free gigs. I've already paid my dues. It's insulting when people expect me to do something for free that I normally charge for.
Some of us frequent these newgroups in order to help answer questions and offer some tidbits of info. In all honesty, this post should never have been posted here. It should have been posted in the Jobs forum, and I'm surprised the moderators of this forum haven't locked it or moved it yet. I find it very insulting that you think you know who we are and how much we work. It makes you look like an ass, and I resent such statements. How would you know who is or isn't superficial based on just these posts? You go ask Randy Thom or Jeff Wexler to work on your feature for free and see what they tell you. Both of those, guys by the way (who are both academy award nominess) frequent groups like RAMPS and the sound design group on Yahoo, so to make a statement that people who post on groups aren't working is much too broad and uneducated. It saddens me that there are people like you in this industry, because all you do is bring it down and make it harder for the rest of us.
Have some respect for us, and yourself, man. You're "so there" style post is childish, and obviously without merit.
Have fun working on this project. I hope you enjoy the credit.
-Dave
^^^^^
So, by that logic, If doctors really love what they do, should they not get paid? Should they work over 80 hours a week just because it makes them look good for no pay? Should Tom Brady not get paid to play football, just because he loves the game?
It's people like you that make it harder for the rest of us to make a living at this. Some of us ARE working. How is it a big mistake to not want to get taken advantage of? If you want to whore yourself out, go for it. Have fun. By working for free you are telling people that it's ok not to pay for quality work....AND THEN, once these people go to pay for someone, they don't want to pay much at all because they are used to people like you who don't care.
You are sadly mistaken about the state of affairs with most people on here. We ALL work. Hell, I'm starting a feature (that pays) right now. I also work as a product specialist for extra income. Whereas I am a freelance sound designer, I've only been at it for a year, so I'm not so swamped with work that I can live off of it. However, for me to work for free is to take 10 steps back when I struggle every day to take a step forward. Some of us have already done the free thing. We don't need to do anymore free gigs. I've already paid my dues. It's insulting when people expect me to do something for free that I normally charge for.
Some of us frequent these newgroups in order to help answer questions and offer some tidbits of info. In all honesty, this post should never have been posted here. It should have been posted in the Jobs forum, and I'm surprised the moderators of this forum haven't locked it or moved it yet. I find it very insulting that you think you know who we are and how much we work. It makes you look like an ass, and I resent such statements. How would you know who is or isn't superficial based on just these posts? You go ask Randy Thom or Jeff Wexler to work on your feature for free and see what they tell you. Both of those, guys by the way (who are both academy award nominess) frequent groups like RAMPS and the sound design group on Yahoo, so to make a statement that people who post on groups aren't working is much too broad and uneducated. It saddens me that there are people like you in this industry, because all you do is bring it down and make it harder for the rest of us.
Have some respect for us, and yourself, man. You're "so there" style post is childish, and obviously without merit.
Have fun working on this project. I hope you enjoy the credit.
-Dave
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
The one trait that I have noticed in all Professionals in every field is there never ending hunger for knowledge and to practice that knowledge. This board is here to service that hunger. Us non-professionals are just darn lucky to be a part of it.
The one trait that I have noticed in all Professionals in every field is there never ending hunger for knowledge and to practice that knowledge. This board is here to service that hunger. Us non-professionals are just darn lucky to be a part of it.
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
Sorry for the typo - Lost my connection before I checked my work (Very unprofessional) The one trait that I have noticed in all Professionals in every field is THEIR never ending hunger for knowledge and to practice that knowledge.
Sorry for the typo - Lost my connection before I checked my work (Very unprofessional) The one trait that I have noticed in all Professionals in every field is THEIR never ending hunger for knowledge and to practice that knowledge.
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.
LOL, a reply like that doesn't even deserve a response but I couldn't resist. Do you actually read what you write?
Insulting to ask ANYONE to work for free??? I'm glad you weren't on my Fire Department when my neighbor's house caught on fire. Or the Doctor at the local clinic when the kids down the block became ill.
The posting was NOT directed TO YOU but your responses were as if the post was directed to you...Get over yourself. The posting was a general announcement to ANYONE that may be interested pros and beginners alike.
BTW, people that frequent user groups to help are there to do just that- help not to get a job. It sounds like the last thing you have in mind is to help someone out. If my car broke down on the side of the road it sounds as if you'd charge me for a ride to the nearest gas station. I wouldn't want stranded motorists to think you'd just pick up any old motorists.
Now who sounds like the ass? The guy who would help because he could or the guy that would only help if he was paid?
Oh, and the reason I know so much about this is because I did volunteer to work on this project. I take that back. I was asked to volunteer and I did. Everyone involved in it are volunteers. I know who and what are involved and where things are headed for those involved. Our team also includes a few Oscar winners - also volunteers. Should I pass on to them how you've been insulted and how they're degrading the whole industry because they're working for free?
LOL, a reply like that doesn't even deserve a response but I couldn't resist. Do you actually read what you write?
Insulting to ask ANYONE to work for free??? I'm glad you weren't on my Fire Department when my neighbor's house caught on fire. Or the Doctor at the local clinic when the kids down the block became ill.
The posting was NOT directed TO YOU but your responses were as if the post was directed to you...Get over yourself. The posting was a general announcement to ANYONE that may be interested pros and beginners alike.
BTW, people that frequent user groups to help are there to do just that- help not to get a job. It sounds like the last thing you have in mind is to help someone out. If my car broke down on the side of the road it sounds as if you'd charge me for a ride to the nearest gas station. I wouldn't want stranded motorists to think you'd just pick up any old motorists.
Now who sounds like the ass? The guy who would help because he could or the guy that would only help if he was paid?
Oh, and the reason I know so much about this is because I did volunteer to work on this project. I take that back. I was asked to volunteer and I did. Everyone involved in it are volunteers. I know who and what are involved and where things are headed for those involved. Our team also includes a few Oscar winners - also volunteers. Should I pass on to them how you've been insulted and how they're degrading the whole industry because they're working for free?