DVX feature film needs sweetening.

C

ckalan1

Well-known member
If you are in the Southern California area and have a complete post audio setup and...

If you are interested in working on a very special DVX feature legnth movie for free, please contact me at 714 538-2484
Craig Kitchens or email me at ckalan1@sbcglobal.net

Please only very talented and creative people need apply.
I will need a resume and references.

Thanks,
Craig, Executive Producer
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

If you are interested in working on a very special DVX feature legnth movie for free,

Please only very talented and creative people need apply.  
I will need a resume and references.


-------------------------------snip--------------------------------------
if iam very tallanted - i have work that someone pay for :-)
give me a brake, befor you wont one for free  try not  patronize
ask nacly
if you so tallanted and good and your project so unik , why is no one put $ on you ?
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

One of the biggest challenges is to make this feature length movie with no money. That one thing makes it unique but there are other things as well.

It is asking a lot to even suggest that any one works for free but anyone’s involvement in this project will be very rewarding in the end. That is all I can tell you for now.

I hope that addresses your concerns.

I do not mean to sound condescending. I apologize.
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

good luck
and for these who really think to go to gigs like that - make a good contract
since sweet words of rewordining in the end
with out paper in the hand
dont worth one cent in jungle of the f ..film lend
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Wow. A whole feature for free? Don't take this the wrong way, but that's really asking a lot. If by "rewarding in the end" you mean a big ol' check when I hand you the final mix, then sign me up. I don't think anyone who is "talented and creatieve" AND has their own gear will do this for free. A feature takes a long time for someone to do.

Honestly, your best bet would be to approach a post production house that has a bunch of interns that don't have much to do, and have them do it for free. The place I used to intern did that, and I did one or two projects like that. But then you have interns working on it, not an industry professional. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Some of us have families, and need to pay rent, and put food on the table. For some of us, this is how we earn a living. Some people may even get offended at an offer like this. If you get someone who is talanted and creative, has a good resume and good references, then great for you. However, I highly dought you'll find such a person for free.

-Dave
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Not sure where you are, but Dave has the right idea. I would steer you to a school for sound engineers/designers and see if they would take it on as a class project.

Matt
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Looking to get a hold of someone's completed movie for free. I will take your movie and attempt to profit from it. You will receive written credits at the end (plus you had the fun of making a movie) but I will take all the financial benefits. You put a lot of time, skill, and effort into that movie, time to give it to me for free! BTW, I'm only accepting quality high production value movies; maybe you can be the lucky one!



Seriously, I am sure you meant no offense Ckalan1 but it really is a slap in the face to those, who have worked hard to develop their skills and invested in the equipment, to ask them to work for free.

If you looking for a freebie, Matt and Dave have it right, try the local film school for a kid looking to build his resume.
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Wow.... there seems to be some seriously jaded folks here.
Did anyone call him to ask what the project is about?
Before you decide that it's just some one looking for a bunch of free work, maybe see what it's about?
Have we all heard of networking? Sweat equity? Paying dues?

My scenario: I'm a lead AE for a music production studio, We're a commercial room in Oceanside CA. doing quite well given the ever shrinking budgets and proliferation home recording gear...

It's been on my "master plan" to push our room towards Post, and to possibly become a "one stop" for audio post. I have no delusions about cracking the Hollywood nut. I'd just like to work on really cool films, that have good people involved.

I talked to Craig and if you take the TIME to ask questions, you may see the bigger picture that he's trying to paint.

Yes, I work for free on projects that I care about. I also work on the mundane(and good) projects that feed the family.
A few of the projects that I've invested TLC in have come back in spades in the form of other PAYING clients.

Explore all your options.... you'll be surprised where some can lead.
Trust your instincts on whether your getting used or not....
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Cajonezzz,

Yes, I think it's safe to say that everyone who responded to this poster on-line has heard of networking, sweat equity and paying dues.  The problem is that everyone who responded has networked, invested a tremendous amount of sweat equity (and hard capital) and already paid their dues.  That is why I suggested some talented students, because THEY are the ones who need to focus on those things.

As far as doing things for free for talented folks without a budget, I think it's a simple cost/benefit analysis for most.  I'm not in the music biz anymore but when I was, if someone asked me to score a short (5min) film for them for free, I would do it, if I had the time and liked the film and they seemed needy enough.  I would never score an entire feature for free, unless it was for a mainstream hollywood film with guaranteed distribution and I was trying to "crack that nut" as it were, it simply takes far too much time.

Same thing goes for mixing or doing sound design for a film.  To do it right takes a tremendous amount of time.  I spent days doing it for a quick 5 minute short that had no dialog.  To do a feature?  The whole bit?  Months....  Few people can afford to work that hard for that long for no pay.  The only ones who would are either 1) independently wealthy artistic philanthropists 2) students who need to build their resume so that they can get paying gigs 3) People who, due to a lack of professional experience, completely underestimate the amount of work it takes to do this properly and will either, bail on you when they learn, or do a bad job because they didn't.

I'm not trying to be harsh, just telling it like it is.

Matt
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Damn straight, Matt.

Some of us HAVE paid our dues. Some of us HAVE done the free thing. People make a living doing this kind of work. Networking isn't defined as whoring yourself out. Plenty of us network, and get paid to do the gigs. I can understand doing a gig for little money. We all gotta start somewhere. Hell, even the big guns do stuff for low money, but not free. It's insulting to even be asked to work for free. That tells me that the people behind the project don't respect me enough to pay me for what I do...AND if people do work for free on something like this, it tells the film makers that it's ok for people to work for free. I don't need to call to find out how "rewarding" it can be. Sure, it may be fun to work on, and might be a good credit, but tell that to my credit card companies, or my landlord, or Yamaha, or Mazda... Now, if it were a little 5 or 10 minute short, I'd be singing a different tune, but a feature that can take one person well over a month to do right is asking a bit much.

-Dave
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

The points you bring up Cajonezza are valid in general but not relevant to the original post.

I too volunteer my services for many local non-profits that I support. Even then, they pay for my equipment and I either do services in-kind or volunteer my billed hours (tax deductable). The original post makes no mention of non-profit (in fact it very much appears to be a for-profit venture) or any sort of worthy cause. If he had included this info it might have made the request reasonable.

As all the jaded posters mentioned, this sounds exactly like a job for someone looking to BUILD a resume, not someone who already has one. The original post is more or less saying if you don't have the professional experience don't bother calling.

I can tell you from my own and other's personal experience that working for free, unless through an acredited university as an intern, almost never results in paying gigs down the road (there are exceptions). Once you establish yourself as working for free or cheap with someone, they tend to see that as the value of the service you provide.

I too worked for free as I was starting out, none of those clients have ever come back to offer paying gigs (just more requests for free jobs). Most of the time (ckalan1 may be the exception) these producers treat their free help like dirt.

From my experience if someone has a worthwhile production (non-student film) they will take the time and passion to secure proper funding for this "amazing" project. If the project is truely worthy, funding is not that hard to find (at least in most major urban areas in the US). To skip this step shows a lack of respect for the professionals you want to help realize your vision.

Lastly, by requesting this individual uses his own equipment, he is essentially asking this person to not just work for free but, in fact, pay to work on his movie. A gesture of paying for the studio time would have again made this a more reasonable request.

To those just starting out, do not be romanced by the idea that this movie MIGHT get distribution or win at a major film festival and result in a big pay day. Play the lottery, the odds are much better. Better still research the big winners at Sundance, Cannes, etc; 99.9% had decent size budgets (and usually influential connections).

As Matt said, just telling it like it is.
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Craig, I'm doing something similar to what you are doing, and Indie flick from one of my stories that I think has great potential. I'm not a kid, I'm in my 50's and I've saved up money and loaned myself money out of my retirement plan to buy the equipment, the cameras, mics and computer/software programs to pretty much do everything but convert my film from DV to real film. That will come only if I'm successful in getting it entered into a film venue like Sundance, at which point I'll use that invitation as leverage to look for backers to do the conversion to film. Unlike what I've read on your post, I plan to use non-professionals and college kids as my talent, both in front and in back of the camera. For me this is going to be a learning experience both for myself and my cast and crew. That is part of what I want to accomplish, I'm not trying to make the next great blockbuster, I'm just trying to make a good film that will amuse me and give those that see it something to think about as well as some entertainment. For me that is what movies are really all about anyway. If they entertain you good, any movie should at least do that. If a movie not only entertains you but also gives you something to think about, even better. I do think my film will do both, but I'll never know until I get it done.

I'm getting plenty of offers for help because I'm offering three things:

1. Experience making a real movie with pretty good equipment. This has good appeal to those who are non-professional, like college kids that are looking for a way into the movie biz. They give me their time and effort and I give them some hands on experience with real movie gear, scripts etc.

2. A percentage of any profits made for EVERYONE who contributes their time and effort to the film. This will not only be something I say, it will be spelled out in contract form for the help and signed by both of us. Talk is cheap, contracts are binding on both parties. Though I don't go into this project thinking that it can't miss, if it does turn out to be the next Blair Witch I want those who helped get me there to get a fair share of the rewards. That is as fair as I can be.

3. Food for the cast and crew on location. I would not have thought of this one if I hadn't been tipped off to this site by one of my friends who is going to help me with this project, and then read one of the posts here that pointed this out. You can get people to help you for free by donating their time, but they can't do it if they are hungry.

Now this film of mine may (probably) not generate any profits, but if it does I'm willing to SHARE them with those who were willing to give me their time and effort to realize my dream. From what I see of your post, you are not. You might rethink your post here, because to me you come across as someone who is so self-absorbed in their "great dream project" that they don't see just how selfish they appear. If you think it has potential, then have enough respect for those who may contribute to your dream to at least offer a share of any rewards it may garner. As the rest of the "pros" here have pointed out, they have paid their dues on freebee projects, and they also have bills to pay, so to expect "pro" help for nothing while you reap any profits the project may accrue is to expect way to much. If you want to "get," you have to "give" what you can in return.

Just my two cents.

David
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

In the original poster's defense, I don't think he ever said he WOULDN"T share in any potential profits.

A big problem here is the post itself. It's too vague. Maybe there are some sort of kickbacks in the end. However, we shouldn't have to go hunting for those facts. That should be stated right up front so we don't waste our time and money on a phone call. My guess is there isn't, otherwise the poster would have mentioned that up front. Now, since this post is so vague up front, that makes me think that since this person can't do something as simple as write out a complete post looking for help, describing in pseudo detail how "rewarding" it will be, then they may be ambiguous during the entire business relationship, which is not the type of relationship I choose to be involved in.

-Dave
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

I think many who haven't gone to an Arts school may also think that by directing folks there that they'll somehow be getting far less in the way of talent, and that's not necessarily true - in the least. And what they do lack in experience they will certainly make up for in hard work, because you (the filmmaker) are actually offering them something they need - experience. You get a couple of young guns from Berkley who really want to score/design your flick, and you're golden.

David, while your offer is a wonderful gesture, and should be done, the odds of your film ever making a dime, even if it gets rave reviews at a major festival are between slim and none. Even if it gets picked up by a distributor or if you get signed to a future deal it could be years before you realize any profit, or for that matter do anything for the studio that signed you, if ever. Now I am in no way trying to discourage you, hey, were all here doing the same thing right? But it is good to understand this and be very upfront with folks. Also, if you are lucky enough to get real talent in the form of chief crew people, sound design, composer, DP, whatever. You should try to pay them something. It could be a token gesture, an amount so small that you think you'll be insulting them. But believe me, these folks no that ANY money you pay them is a stretch for you and they'll be grateful - not so much for the money, but for the respect.

All of that said. If you're shooting for Sundance (and why not) and this is a real goal of yours, I would change your approach and try to raise funding, before you begin. Maybe all you'll raise is a thousand dollars, maybe you'll raise twenty thousand, but at least you will have SOME resources to make your dream a reality. The sad part is, most folks come to "films" from a movie going, visual background. They have a story and they want to make a movie. So they learn about making a movie and that's moving pictures, right? But many of them never take audio into account, nor do they budget for it. But nothing, NOTHING will ruin a movie more than bad, unintelligible audio. An audience will adapt to a less than perfect picture (DV on the Big Screen) quite rapidly if the story grips them, but the story has NO chance of doing that if people can't understand what's being said clearly and without effort. People say sound is 50% of the movie - I'd say it's more like 70%. That might ruffle the feathers of a few folks here, but go to any student movie festival and watch the movies with great cinematography and bad sound, you won't be able to sit through them.

Yet, sound is an afterthought, and that afterthought is often reflected in how audio guys get treated by those "making the next great film". The point is when I (or others I'm sure) see someone making a movie and they haven't allocated any of their budget towards the sound side of things, I know immediately that they really don't have a clue as to what they're doing production wise - because how you handle audio effects the composition and acquisition of every frame of film (or "frame" of DV footage) you shoot. And if they don't have a clue as to what they're doing production wise, and and they come off as arrogant AND they're not paying me - why in God's name would I, or anyone else who doesn't have to, work with them.

Rant over.

Back to lighting...

Matt
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

All these points understood....
Agreed that the original poster was a little vague.. Has anyone here called him to ask exactly what the "rewards" could be?
You might find it interesting, even if you find it not worth the time or insulting.
Again, MY position is simple... I have the room and the desire to learn.
He asked for "talented and creative people"
I think I can be both. I haven't done a feature, I've done a documentary short.
I have a resume' and references. They are music, not post related.
I don't work for anyone for free...unless I think it's going to benifit me by either giving me experience, or networking connections.
My experience in "networking" in this manner has been positive.
I've been doing this for 25 yrs +, I'm not wet behind the ears.
Point is, you guys didn't CALL to see what he is talking about, you don't KNOW that there is no "back end" offered. You are reacting, rightly so, to the abuses that occur in your and my industry.... if you let it.
All points taken, and I hope to learn something from you folks whether or not I am involved in the original posters film. I know I want to at LEAST put some time into the craft to see what comes of it....and how I like it.
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

[quote author=cajonezzz link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=0#14 date=02/22/05 at 18:46:23]Point is, you guys didn't CALL to see what he is talking about, you don't KNOW that there is no "back end" offered. You are reacting, rightly so, to the abuses that occur in your and my industry.... if you let it.
All points taken, and I hope to learn something from you folks whether or not  I am involved in the original posters film. I know I want to at LEAST put some time into the craft to see what comes of it....and how I like it. [/quote]

14 posts - from obviously dedicated people in this craft, and NO RESPONSE from the original poster. How does that person expect to get FREE work if they don't beg? Goes both ways. Must not be that important of a project.
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

Okay, here's a cocky, sarcastic response ( toungue in cheek )

MAYBE, the guy is actually working his ass off and too busy to check on this forum numerous times a day? MAYBE he's got PAYING gigs to deal with first? Like I do? Like you do maybe? I put in a 12 hour day today... I still want to work on something outside my area of expertise...

I stand with my previous post. Man, I figured I'd run into some jaded folks here (as in music recording) but jeez....

I'll stay away and not post..... I'd like to bolster the illusion of "being busy" or " not really being serious" which ever you prefer.

Craig Zarkos
Proxy Music
Creative Mobile
z-orama
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

TRY e-bay . you might find some one very tallanted intusiastic that can work for free and even pay for the working place , since you good as a self bidder to rise the price ill garanty that your next post would be - looking for good intellegent tallanted lower ;)
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=0#13 date=02/22/05 at 17:29:18]I think many who haven't gone to an Arts school may also think that by directing folks there that they'll somehow be getting far less in the way of talent, and that's not necessarily true - in the least.  And what they do lack in experience they will certainly make up for in hard work, because you (the filmmaker) are actually offering them something they need - experience.  You get a couple of young guns from Berkley who really want to score/design your flick, and you're golden.

David, while your offer is a wonderful gesture, and should be done, the odds of your film ever making a dime, even if it gets rave reviews at a major festival are between slim and none.  Even if it gets picked up by a distributor or if you get signed to a future deal it could be years before you realize any profit, or for that matter do anything for the studio that signed you, if ever.  Now I am in no way trying to discourage you, hey, were all here doing the same thing right?  But it is good to understand this and be very upfront with folks.  Also, if you are lucky enough to get real talent in the form of chief crew people, sound design, composer, DP, whatever.  You should try to pay them something.  It could be a token gesture, an amount so small that you think you'll be insulting them.  But believe me, these folks no that ANY money you pay them is a stretch for you and they'll be grateful - not so much for the money, but for the respect.

All of that said.  If you're shooting for Sundance (and why not) and this is a real goal of yours, I would change your approach and try to raise funding, before you begin.  Maybe all you'll raise is a thousand dollars, maybe you'll raise twenty thousand, but at least you will have SOME resources to make your dream a reality.  The sad part is, most folks come to "films" from a movie going, visual background.  They have a story and they want to make a movie.  So they learn about making a movie and that's moving pictures, right?  But many of them never take audio into account, nor do they budget for it.  But nothing, NOTHING will ruin a movie more than bad, unintelligible audio.  An audience will adapt to a less than perfect picture (DV on the Big Screen) quite rapidly if the story grips them, but the story has NO chance of doing that if people can't understand what's being said clearly and without effort.  People say sound is 50% of the movie - I'd say it's more like 70%.  That might ruffle the feathers of a few folks here, but go to any student movie festival and watch the movies with great cinematography and bad sound, you won't be able to sit through them.

Yet, sound is an afterthought, and that afterthought is often reflected in how audio guys get treated by those "making the next great film".  The point is when I (or others I'm sure) see someone making a movie and they haven't allocated any of their budget towards the sound side of things, I know immediately that they really don't have a clue as to what they're doing production wise - because how you handle audio effects the composition and acquisition of every frame of film (or "frame" of DV footage) you shoot.  And if they don't have a clue as to what they're doing production wise, and and they come off as arrogant AND they're not paying me - why in God's name would I, or anyone else who doesn't have to, work with them.

Rant over.

Back to lighting...

Matt[/quote]

Thanks Mat for the input. I have told everybody involved that this is a crapshoot and there are no guarantees of success. Those who have committed so far have done so because the story is a great one, and I'm a pretty persuasive person on this project in person. Plus I have the equipment to do it with, so it isn't just me talking about it. I don't take post sound lightly, and as you will see below I've done a lot to have good sound. I do hope to get good help on all post work including sound, but I can't count on that, so I have to be ready to do as much as I can myself if that is how it turns out. At my age I can't wait anymore for my ship to come in, I have to try and go out and grab that sucker and drag it into port. I have also learned quite a bit here, including what Foley and FX are among other things. ;)

I am working on some financing ideas, and the loan from my retirement account will not be completely depleted by my recent buying spree on equipment. (No lights yet, but they are in my budget. Probably the Rostronics, I have budgeted $1,00.00 for lights.)  So when the time for post comes believe me I will seek out some pro help and I'll have some, a few thousand dollars at most, to pay them with on my own. I also have the complete Adobe suite including Premiere Pro 1.5, Audition 1.5, Encore DVD 1.5 and After Effects pro 6.5, as well as the Matrox RT.X 100 video editing card. I will have some help using them both from a couple of Professors and students at the two colleges as well as a friend who has his own video biz and knows how to use the Adobe software and hardware. I'm writing the script now on the Movie Magic Screenwriter program. (Boy it is one great program for this project!) My computer has a 2.4 gig processor, as well as 1.25 gigs of ram and a lot of HD space including 80 and 200 gig internal drives and a fire wire external 300 gig HD. And for the DVD burning I have the Sony DRU-500AX.

I have the two DVX's, a couple of 17-inch Flat panel HD monitors for them, as well as all the audio equipment I should need to do this project with. (See my other thread here in audio for the list.) So as far as equipment is concerned I should have what I need to shoot this film. It isn't pro, but it is a lot more than they had in Blair Witch and IMHO I have a hell of a lot better story to tell than they did. (See for yourself at http://www.holywar2.com/ )

I have no illusions about the reality of breaking into the movie biz, but in my favor are good stories to tell like Holy War my first effort here, and pretty good equipment for both sound as well as video. I used to build speaker systems years ago as a paying hobby, and I prize good sound anyway, so I will want to have very good sound on this project.

That said I've never been able to count on anyone else in my whole life including my completely absent father and occasional drop in mother for help with any of my dreams or many basic life needs for that matter, so I've learned to depend on one person, myself. If I can get some help money wise, great. If I can get pro help on any of the rest of this project, great. If I can't, oh well, on to the end of the project as best as I can get there. I will have help for the making of the film, and if I can't get pro help in post, then I'll just have to learn along with the people who do help now, on how to do it with what I have now.  

So thanks for the input here, and I'll keep using this forum as the great resource it is for all of us.

David
 
Re: DVX feature film needs sweetening.

[quote author=cajonezzz link=board=audio;num=1108828590;start=15#16 date=02/22/05 at 19:15:35]Okay, here's a cocky, sarcastic response ( toungue in cheek )

MAYBE, the guy is actually working his ass off and too busy to check on this forum numerous times a day? MAYBE he's got PAYING gigs to deal with first? Like I do? Like you do maybe? I put in a 12 hour day today... I still want to work on something outside my area of expertise...

I stand with my previous post. Man, I figured I'd run into some jaded folks here (as in music recording) but jeez....

I'll stay away and not post..... I'd like to bolster the illusion of "being busy" or " not really being serious" which ever you prefer.

Craig Zarkos
Proxy Music
Creative Mobile
z-orama


[/quote]

Perhaps Craig. Perhaps the other Craig is here as another poster reading these posts and venting his anger at being dissed? Perhaps he realizes now that he asked for a bit too much and he is a bit embarrassed to answer these posts now. In any event I think he got good advice, he just needs to do what he needs to do to realize his dream. And don't try and depend on others who make their living doing this work to deliver his dream for him for free.

David
 
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