DVX+Andromeda, a budget HVX for the rest of us?

[obin]

dvx + reel stream + micro35 for me any day over hvx for ONE reason ONLY, I can't stand COMPRESSION!!! PANASONIC LISTEN! plz! compression SUCKS! even if we only got 5 min of HD footage on a P2 card or 2 of them GIVE US RAW 10bit images! don't even worry about writing the RAW conversion software..I will have that DONE if you can't spend the money on it!

film = NO COMPRESSION and a great high dynamic range! this is the LAST thing that kills video and makes it look like "video" we DO NOT NEED to have PANASONIC decide what our image is going to look like! give us raw, give us raw, give us raw, it's not that hard!

we can have the reelstream setup for the lowbudget and the hvx + raw files for the big stuff!!! stop and think about how AWESOME a 1080p raw file would be!!!!

argg...I will go away now

 

[obin]

Barry, I own the reelstream mod, to get your exposure on HD you must over expose by atleast 2-3 stops on the dv tape! WE are getting LOTS more range, I don't have the tools to really tell you but trust me i'ts awesome

 

[obin]

Craig, it's HD trust me, but it's like your digital still camera, it's not really "6 megapixels" it's more like 2-3 megapixels, the way they get 6 megapixels is by software, the 6 megapixel camera will output for every "color pixel" 2 GREEN one RED and one BLUE that make your "color" it's a pixel thing, read up on understanding BAYER on google under CCD chips or CMOS chips.

 

[Barry_Green]

It's my (limited) understanding that no high-def comes out of the camera. They extract the raw standard-def image from the CCDs, at full 4:4:4 color resolution, and then use the SculptorHD software to up-rez it to HD size (but dropping down to 4:1:1 color or 4:2:0 color in the process).

But, when it comes to the Andromeda, I don't really know. I got that idea from one of the posts in their forum.

 

[taubkin]

I don't have the tools to really tell you but trust me i'ts awesome

Obin, of course you have. Frame a scene. Make sure it's got enough contrast in the scene to make the comparisson worth it. Maybe something with a window in the background... Put something gray in it that that reads 50% in the marker (a gray card to the corner would be ideal). Run tape for 5 seconds. Now get your laptop connected, open FCP or any other program and check the wavefrom on the Andromeda output. Expose so the gray thing reads 50%. Record. Put the two frames side by side and voilá.

Grayscales are the best thing you could shoot, but real settings can do. You just expose BOTH the shots propperly and show the latittude difference, that is all...

Good luck with your toy, I'm dying to play with one of those...

 

[Barry_Green]

Taubkin's exactly right. Just set up any scene, anything that will show some range. Shoot it twice. The first time, expose properly for the Andromeda. The second time, expose properly for the DVX. Then import the DVX frame off of tape, and post the two for comparison.

Try to make sure that there's a highlight that just reaches into clipping, so we have a common reference point to compare. Thanks!

 

[stephenvv]

Taubkin's exactly right. Just set up any scene, anything that will show some range. Shoot it twice. The first time, expose properly for the Andromeda. The second time, expose properly for the DVX. Then import the DVX frame off of tape, and post the two for comparison.

Try to make sure that there's a highlight that just reaches into clipping, so we have a common reference point to compare. Thanks!

Barry:

Juan had posted shots of the extended latitude back in the old huge dvinfo thread from back years - not sure if they are still there and I recall they were not that controlled but enough to see there was some difference.

However, the mod now is very different from back then, so new stuff would be good.

 

[235 Studios]

Interesting indeed, hopefully we can see a comparison. What Barry says makes sense, but it would be nice to have a test to see the results.

 

[hvpz]

film = NO COMPRESSION and a great high dynamic range!

This is too easy in my humble opinion to say "film = no compression".
The notion of compression means nothing with a negative film (we're not in a digital world).

And, i'm sure in ten years, digital devices will capture more f-stops
than the best negative film ever made.

Obin, if you can do a test with this kind of thing, it could be great.

It is used by Dpreview to measure the dynamic range (here 13 f-stops)

Barry, they're not doing up-res, if i have well understood. They're using the pixel shift to get HD with the use of a bayer demosaicing algorithm. Juan changed these last days the algo to get better result.

 

[Neil Rowe]

dvx + reel stream + micro35 for me any day over hvx for ONE reason ONLY, I can't stand COMPRESSION!!! PANASONIC LISTEN! plz! compression SUCKS! even if we only got 5 min of HD footage on a P2 card or 2 of them GIVE US RAW 10bit images! don't even worry about writing the RAW conversion software..I will have that DONE if you can't spend the money on it!

film = NO COMPRESSION and a great high dynamic range! this is the LAST thing that kills video and makes it look like "video" we DO NOT NEED to have PANASONIC decide what our image is going to look like! give us raw, give us raw, give us raw, it's not that hard!

we can have the reelstream setup for the lowbudget and the hvx + raw files for the big stuff!!! stop and think about how AWESOME a 1080p raw file would be!!!!

argg...I will go away now

obin, you do know the HVX200 DOES output uncompressed right? not untouched/unprocessed raw data of course, but good enough to do with it what you want at 4:4:4

And, i'm sure in ten years, digital devices will capture more f-stops
than the best negative film ever made.

.. cameras like the Genesis already get apx 13 stops.. film is hard pressed to match top notch digital as is RIGHT NOW.

 

[235 Studios]

obin, you do know the HVX200 DOES output uncompressed right? not raw data of course, but good enough to do with it what you want at 4:4:4

I thought that DVCPRO HD was a compressed format at 4:2:2, am I mistaken?

 

[Neil Rowe]

no, your right.. DVCPRO HD is compressed at 4:2:2. ...but the HVX200 outputs uncompressed HD via an HD Component (D4) output as well as recording the compressed DVCPRO HD/50/25 DV formats in camera.


..the sony HDV cameras, and the new JVC also output uncompressed HD as well. not at all the same framerates and such, but within the framerates they have.. they all offer uncopressed HD component out. its just that none of the cameras (HVX included) can record the uncompressed in camera. you need an external recorder able to handle uncompressed HD's mega data rate and storage requirments.. and well.. that costs a pretty penny. but for studio application.. its great.

 

[235 Studios]

Thanks for that clarification. Since it outputs 4:4:4 via the component, it doesn't sound like the andromedia would be needed for the HVX. (As some have wondered if it will be modded for that camera.)

 

[Daniel Skubal]

I met with the andromeda guys a couple of months ago at a coffee shop in town. They showed me the rig. It's insane. Yes, it does stream to the laptop with no compression, and then in sculptor, it can be cropped and flipped and whatever else you need...
If I had the cash, I'd get one. Based on what I saw, the dynamic range for color was incredible. The image looks slightly milky when captured raw, but it gives you a greater range for color correction.

There are really only a couple of drawbacks;

1. there's no in-camera control of color. White balance, shutter speed and any controllable button on the dvx is useable, but the image adjustment from the lcd menu is unuseable. Now it doesn't completely destroy that menu, because you can switch back to SD and get those options back...

2. the warranty is voided out.

 

[Neil Rowe]

Ohhhh, what utter horsesh**. I never saw that one on their site before, and it really irks me for them to show that.

That pretty much cements my opinion of those guys into the realm of carny barkers.

harlan

..yeah IMHO that comparison is just laughable..

honestly, id like to have my opinion changed. I have high regards for the product yet, but would like to see some real comparisons being done instead of all the smoke and mirrors.

 

[Flintstone]

The problem with the HVX, HD100, and Z1 uncompressed output, is that it's analog... And you need a converter to get it in the digital domain. Single link HD-SDI is limited in bandwidth, and dual-link converters might cost a tad more. :evil: Once you have your HD-SDI out from that converter box, you need to connect it to either a HDCAM or DVCProHD deck. HDCAM SR for dual link HD-SDI. If a deck is out of the question, then you need a Desktop computer with an HD-SDI interface card.

So... two things are wrong with the analog route. Price of the equipment need to convert and store the data. And, the size and weight of the equipment.

The andromeda only requires a laptop. Just like DV Rack.

So... remind me what the actual benefit of analog uncompressed output is?

I'm not a die-hard advocate of the Andromeda. Although I have been keeping tabs on the project since its beginnings. In theory, and in the very limited test snapshots and footage we have seen, this device is very interesting. As with all unreleased products, we will have to see how it fares when it is officially released. Speculation is worthless! :thumbdown

As for its improved dynamic range, I believe there is one shot of a balcony view that gives us a glimpse of its capabilities.

HD resolution aside, having uncompressed SD is a boon. I would have settled for 10bit 4:2:2 (DigiBeta quality). So who am I to argue for true 4:4:4?

One thing I did not like to see on the picture is the use of a mini-USB connector. 4-pin firewire connectors are flimsy enough as it is, mini-USB ports aren’t better. Just wish they’d used a different choice of connector.

 

[Neil Rowe]

So... remind me what the actual benefit of analog uncompressed output is?[/color]

...its for studio applcations for people who can can afford or already have HD analog component capture equipment.

anyway my point wasnt that i thought it was practically useful for myself or anyone for that matter.. i was only responding to someone saying.. "Panasonic.. give us uncompressed" .. so i said.. "they did". :beer:


..on another note, ive seen the picture from the balcony, but it basically looks like it was just underexposed. in contrast to the DV frame grabe which is obviously overexposed..

I realize that people are reporting having to open up a couple more stops than what was possible using the standard DV from the camera to get correct exposure using the andromeda.. but that doesnt mean that it has more stops of range.. currently it just appears to me that the sensitivity of the camera is just dropped down a couple stops when using the andromeda. meaning it has the same dynamic range,, ony its less sensative.. so you would capture the same dynamic range and exposure in the image using andromeda at say f2.0 as you would using the DVX regular at say f6.0. just like putting on a mini35.. you have to open up the iris more to get proper exposure.. the regular DVX would be overexposed.. but basically its just because you need more light. and the dynamic range is the same.

the above andrmeda deck capture reminds me of these images from my DVXwhich have similar moods and contrast ratios:

and this one has pure bright blue sky and clouds, decent exposure on skintones, and still keep trees and bright rocks and other things in the scene at about the same level they are at in the andromeda capture. right off the regular good ol DVX

..now its all a speculative until we get someone to do a real fair comparision, but as suggested before, anyone with the relastream can just shoot with it, and properly expose for a particular level on an object, and then switch to regular DVX shooting and properly expose to the same level on the same object.. post the pics for us to see and well all see the big dynamic range difference and give the andromeda device its due respect.. better yet have a trusted and respected person do the comparision, and have them post the results.. either way all we are saying is that the comparision images currently out there are not a valid comparision, and somewhat rediculous, and wed like to see the real thing done.. if it does what its supposed to, the experiment and evidence should be a peice of cake and take about 2 minutes to do.. and another minute to post here. again i dont have anything against the andromeda.. i hope it actually expands lattitude by a gazilliopn stops... and ill by one in a heartbeat. but as is.. all m saying is that the current promoitional materials are bunk. i mean ..heres the "comparision from andromeda to the Panasonic varicam i linked to before.

now obviously thats just not right.. my DVX grabs are better than the that varicam grab. anyway .. for thr trillionth time.. just in case anyone was wondering... i want the andromeda to do what it says it does..and if it does, i might buy one.. the only thing i have a problem with is these promotional materials which are inconclusive, and drastically misleading. and rediculously huge. lol

 

[harlan]

Yeah those comparison images seriously pissed me off; they're completely misleading.

I could go on a huge rant about the misleading information provided on the Reelstream website, but I'll spare you all. It's quite frustrating that they have to resort to dishonest comparisons in an attempt to upsell their product.

 

[fomoDVXpal]

Yes, you can.



No, you don't.

Jubal28.

Yes you do need a Mac computer to capture the footage because Andromeda's software called 'Sculpture' is a Mac based program. And yes the only reasonable setup would be a notebook unless you got yourself a mac-mini with a constant cable plugged into a wall socket - not to mention a separate monitor.

Juan figures with a number pad you can control all the record functions. wack the notebook in a backpack and you can go mobile. or have the notebook out and you can analyse the picture - all off a battery and with a preview monitor.

Juabl28. Are you saying that the HVX records HD to tape? from what i can gather (i haven’t used it) is that it only records HD to p2. here's a quote from Jarred and Barry's article:

"The Panasonic offers miniDV tape for recording, and P2 memory cards for high-def (and standard-def DVCPRO25 and DVCPRO50) recording. It can also transfer files from the P2 card directly to an off-the-shelf USB 2.0 external hard disk, or to a potentially-forthcoming FireStore type of device."

from what i gather, the HVX records only to miniDV a DV AVI codec. have i got this wrong? please elaborate.

 

[pertierr]

Hello,

I just caught this thread so i'll try to answer any questions any of you have about Andromeda.

About the two balcony images, anyone who thinks they do not show an increased dynamic range clearly doesn't understand what the images are. Both images are the same frame but recorded via different mediums. Now from what I've read here, can someone(iamloser?) explain to me how the sensitivity of the CCD block can change if both images are the same frame, taken at the same instant in time? The raw frame is what is at the early A/D stage, and the DV frame is what that SAME A/D data was processed-to and put onto tape.

Anything the DVX puts on tape begins with the RAW image captured from the CCD's and the A/D converters. For that reason, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any optical information in the DV image that isn't already in the RAW image.

About the Varicam frame. We do not own a Varicam. Furthermore we are located nowhere near a place where we can rent one for a day or so. We rely for most of our footage on beta testers, and we got this from a beta tester who uses the Varicam regularly to shoot commercials. He is in our reel-stream forum (obin olson), feel free to talk to him if you think the shot was incorrectly done.

We are not trying to mislead anyone, and most of the comments i've heard are mostly from people not understanding exactly what goes on when we record the signal straight off the A/D converters.

The Varicam frame, we have openly asked anyone to send us their best Varicam frame and we will shoot footage under as similar conditions as possible with our system. We are still waiting.

iamloser: If you think the Varicam footage doesn't look 'right' then you must obviously have shot/seen some Varicam footage that does look 'right'. Please send us some frames.

This is also a request to anyone out there who thinks whoever shot the Varicam frame didn't do a good job(Obin Olson). Send me your Varicam frames, and a description of the conditions/setup. We will duplicate the conditions as close as we can and shoot footage with our system, then post it.

The grand mayority of the time, however, i've been suprised by the number of people who initially are incredulous about our output simply because they have this paradigm that a $100k setup MUST look better. Many have never even used a Varicam.

Again, we are not trying to mislead anyone, and especially we have no interest in 'up-selling' our product by misleading people. That doesn't make any sense, it would just create a large number of dissatisfied costumers which nobody wants.

I created this whole concept to especially give the people who can't go out and buy 2 Varicams plus all the stuff that goes along with it, access to uncompressed 4:4:4 video on a smaller scale, that right now you can only get from cameras like the Viper. This device does just that.

I'll be happy to answer any other questions.

Cheers,
Juan