DVX and Color

F

fstop

Active member
Hey y'all,

It's been too long since I've last been here. Just a quick question. I have heard that the DVX 100A doesnt like red, meaning you can see lines in the footage on playback. Is this true, and is there a remedy for it? Other colors? I am building costumes for a feature I am shooting and one of the characters is wearing, yep, RED, the whole costume. Any feedback would be great.

Look forward to catching up.

fstop
 
Not true that it is unqiuely a problem with the DVX.

The miniDV format (any manufacturer) uses a 4:1:1 chroma subsampling, and this is what causes problems with saturated primary colors (red stands out, but the issue is the same with blue).

Some people have recommended lowering the chroma setting on the camera to take some of the color out. This isn't really a solution. It doesn't make the color sampling better or more precise, it just desaturates and makes it less apparant at first glance.

The best thing to do is take some test footage of the costume under your lighting setup and see if it is acceptable to you. If not, there are a few solutions.

One, use a better format, such as DVCPRO50 (can be recorded to P2 cards on the HVX200), which stores twice as much color detail. Or, use an intelligent chroma deartifacter in post. Magic Bullet Suite can do this (you can disable the deinterlacing since you are shooting progressive, but allow MB to perform the deartifacting), and other chroma smoothers and deartifacters are out there. You will need to use a lossless format of some kind (such as uncompressed AVI) to retain the detail you restore. If you go right back to DV-AVI format, you'll lose the detail you just got back.
 
PaPa said:
i had this issue on mac, never once on a pc
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This is cause the mac probably had a good screen. My PC laptop has an awesome screen and Reds and blues look like lego cities. but on a TV monitor it looks fine.
 
no its not that,

i edited some stuff on my mlac, burned to dvd, reds were gross

did the same on the pc, reds were fine in the computer, as well as on dvd.

i truly believe its not onlyl to do with the dvx compression, but how MOV handles it.
 
I was on a shoot with a DVX100a last semester and we had the "zebra striping" reds problem. I forget what they did, but were able to fix it in camera.
 
PaPa said:
no its not that,

i edited some stuff on my mlac, burned to dvd, reds were gross

did the same on the pc, reds were fine in the computer, as well as on dvd.

i truly believe its not onlyl to do with the dvx compression, but how MOV handles it.
Click to expand...

Final Cut Pro, unlike Avid, doesn't natively smooth color. This way, when you apply many effects to the image, the color doesn't run upon re-rendering--it stays true, since it was never smoothed (blurred) to being with. You have to smooth it before outputting to dvd, unfortunately, or you risk blockiness. Some would argue Avid's system is better (simpler); I'm fine with Final Cut Pro's. It's not a mac versus pc thing; it's a difference of how NLEs handle color sampling and the trade offs of each system. If you know what you're doing, Apple's method is probably better and results in slightly less generational loss if you go back to miniDV tape--but it's also a bit of a pain for outputting to dvd. That said, Apple's DV codec still may not be the best and was, in fact, considered to be quite bad for many years.

Also, the dvx has a tendency to overemphasize reds more than other minidv cameras, so while this is a problem with the DV codec, it also applies more to the dvx than to other cameras.
 
As usual, a wealth of responses. Thanks.

Here's my problem. I am building all the costumes I need, and fabric is pretty expensive. I want to put the heavies in Scarlet red, and the heros in blue. Can the problems with the colors be fixed maybe by using a lighter shade of the color? If worse comes to worse I could just put the heavies in black, and the heros maybe in a lighter shade of blue. I just want to be sure before I plop down 3 bucks a yard for fabric because those yards add up fast.

I have quite a few more questions about other stuff before I start spending dough but for now.......gotta run. Thanks again.


fstop
 
fstop, you can try lighter colors, just like you can reduce the saturation in the camera. Either will make the color issue less apparent, but neither solves the problem. It is a limitation of the format. There are work-arounds as mentioned.

As some people have said, it'll jump off the screen at you on a computer monitor, but may look fine on your TV. You have to test it and see if it bothers you or typical people that will be watching it.
 
hmmm, it seems as though this has never properly been investigated.

because ive stated time and time again, i had this issue on my mac, never on a pc, both using dvx100b, both burned dvds on television, and again, red issues with the mac burned one, not pc burned one.

this isnt a comparison of the two platforms, but i would put money down on the fact that the compression and blocky reds is due to how MOV records it.
 
PaPa said:
hmmm, it seems as though this has never properly been investigated.

because ive stated time and time again, i had this issue on my mac, never on a pc, both using dvx100b, both burned dvds on television, and again, red issues with the mac burned one, not pc burned one.

this isnt a comparison of the two platforms, but i would put money down on the fact that the compression and blocky reds is due to how MOV records it.
Click to expand...

Whatever workflow you were using on Mac may have made the problem worse, but the basic fact is that in miniDV, the luma is a 720x480 image, and the chroma channels are 180x480. Yes, that's right! 180 pixels by 480 pixels for the color channels. That's low res color... in the camera... and nothing you can do about it.

By the time you capture to Mac or PC, the damage is done. Why it was not apparant on PC, but very apparant on Mac may be a matter of investigation. Personally, I use PC exclusively, and I see the color issue all the time. I deartifact important projects using Magic Bullet, particularly if there are vibrant colors in them.
 
If you want, you can check out my short film LEAP OF FAITH http://www.nrestudios.com/work_files/leap_of_faith.mov (right-click, save-as). My hero wears a bright red shirt (it was some sort of athletic shirt, similar in material to the Under Armor brand).

Anyway, it was shot on the DVX-100A using the Anamorphic adapter. I'm not guaranteeing there are no problems, but it at least will give you something to look at and see if it bothers you or not.

Peace,
Larry
 
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