DVD format war

Billy Pilgrim said:
I'm going to sit it out, because it's really tough to say what will be accepted by the broad public, because it's not always about quality. Blu-Ray sounds far better than HD-DVD, but Beta was also better quality than VHS, and look what happened there. Laserdisc was better than both of them. I'm not one to go with the crowds and wait to find out what everyone else likes, but I'm not going to invest hundreds, possibly even thousands of dollars into one player and a small collection, just to have it be obsolte, and worth basically nothing in a short amount of time. As exciting as it is to have this technology now, I'd much rather wait a year or two for the "war" to be over. My mom and sister actually just won a PS3 and HD-DVD player from the Ellen Degeneres show, so I might rent a few from each format and compare/contrast.
Click to expand...

Spec-wise, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are pretty much identical except for potential storage capacity. There's no video or audio superiority between the two. Beta was technically superior to VHS in a way that Blu-Ray is not over HD-DVD.

What put the game in favor of VHS was recording length and price. Now, theoretically, Blu-Ray has the recording length advantage, but recorders aren't available yet, and for 85% of households in the US, it's a moot point anyway, because there's no HD content coming into them to be recorded, or HD screens to view them on.

Blu-Ray may be able to get more content on a single disc, but I doubt that matters much to the vast majority of consumers, especially when extra content will most likely mean extra prices. (Most consumers don't care all that much about it, anyway.) So, if movies and players are cheaper on the HD-DVD side . . .

The point is, neither has a clear advantage. So, it's going to be some time before a "winner" is declared, if there ever is.
 
David makes several great points!

BTW, if anyone thinks there is a Quality difference between them, well now you know. Like David says the only difference is potential storage which matters to a VERY small fraction of consumers unless the internet's average speed became the top end of cable or better and distribution of HD content became as popular as it is now for music and continued onto the same slope of popularity making it one of the most popular ways to get your stuff on the short term...

Why do you say "if" a winner is declared? Do you really consider a future with dual format players? The good news is that unlike Beta vs. VHS the physical similarities are such that a Blue Ray player should be able to be adapted to play HD DVDs...

it is interesting to consider such a future cause then I would imagine Blue Rays being used for full trilogies and such :) with HD DVD's being used for "no, I only got the HD DVD version cause I didn't have the extra $5 for the additional features" lol... anywho... just thinking aloud here.... sorry
 
LOL... well yes, no doubt the'll be gone one day... but you don't think that one of them will root themselves in? I don't think that's what you are saying... or is it??
 
I'm with DJ on this one. The consumer isn't the one clamoring for blu-laser disc players. The studios are, and not for HD content -- they want them for the DRM.

The end consumer, by and large, doesn't care.

So while the major manufacturers continue to hammer at each other and proclaim this or that advantage in "the war", I strongly suspect the consumer will continue to ignore it entirely and sooner or later the big manufacturers will realize that for every blu-ray player sold, there are about 10,000 YouTube viewers. (okay, made those numbers up, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's accurate). People want instant and free access, not expensive DRM-laden products.
 
Oh.. yea... I am with you too, I was just worried that you thought neither would become widely accepted before something else rolled along.

What's DRM Barry?

You Tube will blow people away once you can get decent compression... say 150MB for 10 minutes which would be close to SD... so something around SD... with the way they keep adding storage to Gmail (6GB probably just before 2008 hits) and with them buying 700MHz for fast wireless internet... well I think we'll get there sooner than we think. But still, I do think that while by far not the majority, a lot of people mainly those who already got the HD TV with the HD ESPN package will be glad to spend $150 for a player that will do the same to their movies... and most of those are not likely to want to download their HD movies even if it only takes a few hours. The geeks and techno-philes which account for nothing of the population might want Blue-Ray but even most of those won't care unless they have specific storage needs...

I am hoping people will become interested in this extra quality once they see it at their friend's house but I don't expect the bulk to go for it until a 42' 1080 TV goes for say $500 and the player for $100... $800 and $150 will make many go for it... anywhhhay you know how it goes... the cheaper it gets the more people buy and therefor fund production and then prices can drop more...

the question is when will we see what happening and that has a lot to do with our economy... anyone working for the Federal Reserve with some inside info on the US economy here...? lol...
 
Digital Rights Management -- a way of controlling content (copy protection, etc.), often detrimental to the customer but very beneficial to the seller.

It's the kind of thing that drives people up the wall about iTunes (though they have done, or are supposed to do, away with it).
 
Thanks DJ

MCGEE, ok, before clicking on it I'll guess it is about $800

EDIT: HAHAHAH!!! I AM SO MONEY BABY!!! dead on! woot!... lol.. ok I'll shut up now
 
DJ, yeah the DRM thing with iTunes is about the most anoying thing that I have come across with my digital music stuff, seconded only by when I cant find a songs name but can sing the whole thing backwards.

Persionaly, I think that Sony and Toshiba should merge the two, because then it would make it a WHOLE lot easier on us consumers. But, thats not what its about is it. Its about who can get more money faster.
 
How successful have propritary Sony formats been in the past?

betamax, digital8, miniDISC?

I dunno, just throwing that out there.

I really don't care who wins as long as it gets decided in the next few years.
 
Barry_Green said:
I'm with DJ on this one. The consumer isn't the one clamoring for blu-laser disc players. The studios are, and not for HD content -- they want them for the DRM.

The end consumer, by and large, doesn't care.

So while the major manufacturers continue to hammer at each other and proclaim this or that advantage in "the war", I strongly suspect the consumer will continue to ignore it entirely and sooner or later the big manufacturers will realize that for every blu-ray player sold, there are about 10,000 YouTube viewers. (okay, made those numbers up, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's accurate). People want instant and free access, not expensive DRM-laden products.
Click to expand...

The end consumer doesn't know anything about DRM... most people don't even know what it is.. Most have no idea DVD's have DRM either...

To me.. DRM is really only a setback on digital content ie: iTunes content or Amazon unbox.

What does DRM do to the person that has a blu-ray player and is watching a film they bought? nothing... absolutely nothing.

Realistically the DRM on HD-DVD / Blu-Ray will be cracked (and I think have been) as easily as DVD. This doesn't stop people from buying DVD's. Though I suppose the distinction could be made that DVD has encryption and not true DRM... but then BD / HD-DVD are also just more advanced versions of encryption. There is no problems just taking a disc to someone elses house and watching it on their player.

True DRM would.. and does limit you the hardware you can watch on.

It bothers me to no end that everyone thinks that a digital download solution is the future.. as if any of the studios will allow complete DRM free versions of their content to be purchased. They will continue to punish the people that *actually buy their products with that junk. It is one solution.. one that I don't think is ready. It's ironic to think that the new HD Optical media is still the lesser of two evils in terms of DRM.

I think what you said is partially true Barry, people do want instant access content without any DRM... on the internet... in the living I'd say HDTV / DVD / BD / HD-DVD is still king.

If we look for minute at the bit-rates of say a blu-ray disc; most new releases are pushing the maximum transfer rate of 48Mbps... thats a substantial improvement to HDTV channels; or if you want to compare digital downloads, just look at the Xbox 360 HD films for rental.. a 1.4GB film does not compare visually with a 30+GB film on an HD-DVD/BD disc.

Pushing that content over the cable networks / internet connections of today isn't up to snuff.

These discussion always inevitably lead to someone bringing up Digital Downloads as the future... yet I can't for-see optical media suddenly being dropped by the planet when the first decent solution is available.

Is it bad to have an HD optical format AS WELL as digital downloads? Perhaps it is just me, but I like having physical copies of the films I buy.. and I'd even continue to burn them to discs if they originated solely as a digital purchase (if I could even do that with DRM variants).

And yes, before I wrap up this long winded rant, I am aware of the "DRM" on Blu-Ray and the downscaling of video if not run through an HDMI cable. etc etc.. I chose not to focus on it.

Also, SteveLaClair, Blu-Ray is not a proprietary Sony format; sony owns a small portion of the patents on the format. They just happen to be the biggest and most vocal supporter of the format.

end rant.
 
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USLatinContent said:
Oh.. yea... I am with you too, I was just worried that you thought neither would become widely accepted before something else rolled along.

.

I am hoping people will become interested in this extra quality once they see it at their friend's house but I don't expect the bulk to go for it until a 42' 1080 TV goes for say $500 and the player for $100... $800 and $150 will make many go for it... ..
Click to expand...

We're getting there. At costco a 1080p 42" set is 1000 dollars. A 720p 37" set is 750 dollars.
 
Billy Pilgrim said:
That's why I'm waiting.
Click to expand...

So why are you waiting? You want to buy a format that will last 100 years? It's like saying I'd like a new car now but I'm going to wait until the very best car ever built is made, then I'll buy that.
Both disc's are going to be around longer then the technology is relevant. Hell you can still buy cassette players.......

People keep saying they're waiting like there's a cutoff date and if they make the wrong choice their juju bees will go sour. If you want to watch high def dvd's, buy a player, enjoy it now and realize that you'll never get all movies in all formats.
 
Loki... I see what you are saying, but I think most people that bring up HD downloads up do so after saying "in the future" and they hopefully mean several years like I do... or a system where you'd select movies and they'd be ready by the next day in a HDD built into your receiver... broadcasters would then allocate bandwidth per user... anywho... it is something I have to mention even if cumbersome, long term and requiring a major overhaul of the broadcasting infrastructure which would cost... well... a little bit. It is too cool not to discuss... I just hope people who bring it up or read about it realize the timeline associated with it. However better codecs and slightly faster access could some day soon (within a decade) allow for streaming SD... don't shoot this one down... I WANT to believe it... :)

Oh... and I don't buy movies, don't see why people do... I rent them... if I want to watch them again I add it to the list again... :)

Music is different, you do want to listen to some songs hundreds of times... a movie you might wants a bunch of times... but most the time you don't ever watch it again.

I think the mailing DVD thing that Netflix started and BlockBuster is kickin' butt with is the best distribution channel for features... not only will it keep opticals alive but it will lower piracy and effectively save the film industry IMHO.
 
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