DVCPRO HD in palmcorders

mgalvan said:
Yes, undoubtedly DVCPROHD as a format is DEFINITELY better than HDV
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Everybody is always talking about how "good" a format "is".
Let's say it looks better, or it's less compressed.
But after filling several Terabyte during the last months shooting HD I am not so sure if the Term "better format" always hits it. It's also about file size and handling and how to work on it in an NLE if you don't have much time.
 
Dann said:
David, it's not JUST physics.

It's economics, too.

When is Panny gonna stop "doing a Bush" and adjust their pricing to reflect where the rest of the world (ie. Sony) is taking HD?

thanks!
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Panasonic is not taking HD to the same place as Sony is. Lesser format = lesser cost. It's always been that way. If you want to shoot Hi8, that costs a lot less than Digital Betacam. You make your choice based on your standards and your budget.

If you want medium-res interlaced video with poor chroma sampling and significant motion artifacting, for a cheap price, you can have that with Sony HDV. If you want frame-discrete genuine high-def with twice the color sampling and no motion artifacts, pure progressive scan as well as interlace, variable frame rates etc., you can have that with Panasonic.

They aren't the same. To demand Lexus quality at a Hyundai price is neither fair nor realistic. It's more appropriate to expect Hyundai quality at a Hyundai price.
 
Quote:

I think the gap between Pro and Consumer has gotten to close for comfort. Everyone with a cam from Walmart thinks they can shoot films. DVCPro should stay just that Pro. The gap between Pro and Consumer needs to be further apart.[font=&quot]
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bilgami,

The true "gap" between pro and consumer is and has always been in the technique and storytelling employed. If anyone is relying solely on the technology or the brand name (ie dvc PRO) then they are kidding themselves. I've seen better work done on a DVX than an HDCAM because the filmmaker with the dvx was a true craftsperson and the joker with the Sony was not.

Casey
 
Dann said:
When is Panny gonna stop "doing a Bush" and adjust their pricing to reflect where the rest of the world (ie. Sony) is taking HD?
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I have a problem with letting a shoddy company that floods the market with their shoddy equipment determine the direction of the world. Instead why don't I determine the direction of MY own world by choosing a product that suits me. In this case that would be using HD that's not so horribly compressed. That would make my world LOOK a whole lot better. Peace.
 
"Instead why don't I determine the direction of MY own world by choosing a product that suits me?"

Indeed, why don't you? Buy what you want. You want a less-compressed HD, it won't be cheap. If you can't afford it, rent.
 
Um, Zig? That's exactly what I said. Have you read the rest of the thread, or just my last post? Not sure what the intentions of your post are.
 
caseyhayward said:
The true "gap" between pro and consumer is and has always been in the technique and storytelling employed.
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Thank's for adding that to the discussion again. Anybody seen "Festen" by Thomas Vinterberg? I think it was called "The Celebration" in America.

If you can tell a story that well, I'll give you a wallmart cam to do so.
 
Some friends contacted me a while back about doing sound for their independent movie. Asked them what camera/format they intended to use, basically a film or video question to help solidify a sound recording method (video camera, dat, or hdd) They said some sort of video. This group had completed two short projects before with VariCam, but since this is a feature the guy didn't think they could afford a VariCam rental. So I suggested the DVX and his immediate response was, "oh yeah, I've used that camera before. . . it doesn't look very professional blah blah blah." After seeing the recent trailer for November I am more convinced now than ever it merely has to do with who is lighting the film. In expert hands the little DVX camera can look better than a more expensive camera in improper hands. I know this sounds obvious, but truthfully, November looks better than the VariCam projects I have been involved in (all three of them)

Cinematography is a quirky, delicate, difficult art form to say the least.
 
Dann said:
David, it's not JUST physics.

It's economics, too.

When is Panny gonna stop "doing a Bush" and adjust their pricing to reflect where the rest of the world (ie. Sony) is taking HD?

thanks!
Click to expand...

Barry_Green said:
Panasonic is not taking HD to the same place as Sony is. Lesser format = lesser cost. It's always been that way. If you want to shoot Hi8, that costs a lot less than Digital Betacam. You make your choice based on your standards and your budget.

If you want medium-res interlaced video with poor chroma sampling and significant motion artifacting, for a cheap price, you can have that with Sony HDV. If you want frame-discrete genuine high-def with twice the color sampling and no motion artifacts, pure progressive scan as well as interlace, variable frame rates etc., you can have that with Panasonic.

They aren't the same. To demand Lexus quality at a Hyundai price is neither fair nor realistic. It's more appropriate to expect Hyundai quality at a Hyundai price.
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It's not just the difference between HDV and DVCPRO-HD. It's the difference between a one-chip (and what, a quarter-inch?) consumer cam with a tiny lens and limited control.

Much as the HVX200 will not compare with the SDX900, though the HVX is HD and the SDX is SD, this little Sony will likely not even compare with the DVX, to say nothing of the HVX. It's all physics, thank you very much. Imagers. Lenses. Level of control.

But hey, you're free to carry this thing around and be smug about. :thumbsup:
 
Agreement on above posts. I think one thing that gets lost in these technical discussions is the fact that the technology, the camera, the editing system really isnt the limiting factor EVER. It's the talent, skill and dedication of the people making the film. Thats the big hurdle. Not whether the camera is $2,000 or $20,000 or $200,000.
I am reminded of this everytime I see something like La Jetee, the short film that 12 Monkeys was based on. It was made 40 years ago and is comprised entirely (except for a few seconds) of still photos. So technologically and budget wise, it is within anyones reach. The hard part is telling the story, having original ideas, and being able to pull them off.
I know for sure that it is way easier to get my hands on use of a cheap or free varicam for a shoot than it is to write a great or even good script. Again the camera is not and will never be your roadblock to making films.
 
thisiswells said:
Cinematography is a quirky, delicate, difficult art form to say the least.
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Indeed…
After having met and shared thoughts on digital cinematography with Andrew Laszlo ASC at DV Expo East, and Roy Wagner ASC at the Digital Revolution Workshop West, it's no secret that it requires great skill to wield such an unforgiving format. There are the traditionalists who'll argue that videographers have it easy and it requires very little skill to point and shoot a video camera at whatever. But, the fact of the matter remains as Wells stated, it is still a very delicate process, and it truly requires someone with great skill, discipline, and/or simply a magic eye to get DV and any other digital format for that matter to truly adhere to and/or exceed the principles of what the eye finds desirable. A true cinematographer will be able to run with either the HDV or DVCPRO HD series camera and produce an absolutely stunning piece of work – though -- that’s not to say that if the cinematographer had their choice, they wouldn’t choose the HVX in a heartbeat over anything that’s HDV :)
 
Something else that should not get lost in all of this is your particular timeframe. Can you afford to wait until fourth quarter of '05 to purchase a camera. We have had a number of clients who purchased the Z1U for some immediate upcoming projects with plans on selling it off and purchasing the HVX200 as soon as it is released. How many projects can you shoot in that amount of time (i.e. how much money can you bring in). It gets back to the art form and the experience. Imagine how much better that first project on the HVX might look if you have 3 shorts shot on the Z1U or the DVX under your belt by that time.

(my 1.75 cents plus tax)
 
Guys, you're missing the point:

Barry Green: there is one reason and one reason PRIMARILY this site exists and we're here talking Panasonic - that's because:
PANASONIC INTRODUCED THE CHEAPEST 24P for us "prosumers."

This was the crux of Panasonic philosophy that made the DVX the choice cam for independent filmmakers shooting on DV.

All this talk about quality etc. etc. - well, then we'd be on the Dalsa boards or the Viper boards...

It wasn't too long ago that the XL1 ruled and Panasonic was the LAUGHING STOCK of mini-dv - that changed with the DVX.

So now you guys are telling me they're gonna take the "high road" only do the P2 thing etc. with the HVX... Well, sure... I guess everyone has made mega-moolah shooting DVX projects here so they can spend it all on the new "sub-$10,000.00" solution...

Sony's taking a page out of Panny's book - the last "great" cam Panny introduced was the GS400 last summer - absolute incredible value for the money as far as DV goes - now they've changed the strategy totally, thinking we've been suckered into thinking "well, Panny knows what they're doing - let's cough up lotsa dough to get the latest offering..."

Meanwhile the pragmatists will end up buying the JVC Pro-HD solution for say wedding videography along with Sony HDR-HC1 as "B-cam" because HDV is more cost-effective... How many of you will be buying 2 HVX cams?

I'm glad you guys have $$$ to burn - invite me to your country club some time for a round of golf?

gosh, I think people are missing the point...
 
The fork in the road is in front of us. Some will pony up, and make the expenditure necessary to play in the HD game, and others will go on using 2k dollar cams.

November had quite a few artifacts blown up in a theatre, it was bugging me a bit. Still I was still interested in the story, Greg Harrison is a great editor.
 
Dann said:
gosh, I think people are missing the point...
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Dann, I'm not sure I can agree with your summary about everyone here being in a country club and playing golf or making movies with strictly P2 equipment so I'll focus on your last comment. I'm curious, what is the point?
 
wells:
Panny carved a niche for them by bringing us "great things" (ie. 24p) on the cheap.

Now they're giving it up (ie. HD resolution) to the likes of Sony...

capeesh?
 
Barry Green: there is one reason and one reason PRIMARILY this site exists and we're here talking Panasonic - that's because:
PANASONIC INTRODUCED THE CHEAPEST 24P for us "prosumers."

This was the crux of Panasonic philosophy that made the DVX the choice cam for independent filmmakers shooting on DV.
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No, Panasonic introduced the ONLY choice for prosumer 24p, and they did a damn rip-roaring job of it.

So, tell me -- why would we then give UP 24p just because Sony is offering HD for cheaper? Why would we give up everything we love about the DVX when we'll get all that and more . . . in 1080p?

And I strongly disagree with you -- "incredible value for the money" is exactly what the HVX offers -- 1080p AND 720p, at many frame rates, with DVCPRO-50 and a DVX thrown in to boot -- for under $10K with 16GB of P2 cards included? That's INSANE, how little it costs . . .

And besides, the "wedding videographer" argument is a canard. If they're happier with another camera, let them buy it. No camera is all things to all people. You yourself touch above on the "independent filmmaker" angle, at which this camera is squarely aimed, for which this camera will be much better-suited than the Z1, the HD100, and certainly that little palmcorder.

Or do you argue that the palmcorder is the better choice simply because it's priced less than a P2 card? Your argument says we should have never bought the DVX in the first place, what when Sony cameras are cheaper. Which is preposterous, of course.
 
Dann said:
wells:
Panny carved a niche for them by bringing us "great things" (ie. 24p) on the cheap.
Now they're giving it up (ie. HD resolution) to the likes of Sony...
capeesh?
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But, Dann..
Does Sony offer true 24p in HDV? No.
Does Sony offer 60p in HDV? No.
Does Sony offer professional level 4:2:2 color sampling in HDV? No.
Does any company offer 60p or 4:2:2 in HDV? No.

Have you seen the difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 ? I have. It's night and day.
Have you seen 60p slowed down to 24p from the VariCam ? I have. It's awesome.

Sony really isn't a competitor for the Panasonic HVX200. Neither is JVC. They are vastly different products. Quit bemoaning the fact that the Panasonic system will cost twice as much. It's in a different league, bro.
 
Dann said:
PANASONIC INTRODUCED THE CHEAPEST 24P for us "prosumers."
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Right. Exactly. Now they're introducing the cheapest 60P and 4:2:2 for us "prosumers"
Look around the neighborhood and compare other cameras with these features, I think you'll
find this is the cheapest camera available. HDV offers nada besides resolution and if that's what
you want, then you'd probably be better off with HDV, but it's not a apples-to-apples comparison.

Capeesh?
 
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