DV Expo 2005: HVX200 Sensitivity/Noise

Ralph Oshiro

Veteran
12/07/2005 Los Angeles, California

I attended DV Expo West 2005 on Wednesday afternoon and made these observations:

Noise:

Unfortunately, the 17" Panasonic LCD monitors on display in Panasonic's booth make the camera look much noisier than it actually is. I studied another HVX200 engineering protoype on loan to Samy's Camera, which was located in their booth across the hall, which was the only exhibitor which was showing the HVX200 on an HD CRT monitor. The HVX200 was connected via analog component HD to the respective inputs of a 14" Sony HD CRT. Images from the HVX200 were far less noisy when viewed on the CRT (judging only from the live camera output). On the 17" Panasonic LCDs, when viewing playback of footage that contained swaths of blue sky, severe aliasing, and unacceptably high amounts of picture noise were visible, much of this, I assume, attributed to the display technology, and not the camera. When the camera was put into either +6dB or +12dB gain, in my opinion, the noise level was unacceptably high, even when viewed on the Sony HD CRT.

Sensitivity:

The short answer is, apparently 1-stop less sensitive than an HDX400. The terrific news is that HVX200 did NOT appear to lose any sensitivity when switching recording modes from 480i/60i to any of the HD progressive modes in 24P.

Methodology:

An engineering prototype HVX200 and an HDX400 were both framed on a chip chart illuminated in Tungsten light at 60 footcandles. Utilizing the Panasonic 17" LCD display's built-in waveform monitor, the chart's white chips (89.9% reflectance) were irised on each camera to expose it at 100% IRE. The HDX400 was in 1080i/60i mode (the HDX400 does not do 24P) at what I assume was a 1/60th of a second shutter speed. The HVX200 was tested in all recording modes. Specifically, when set at 1080i/24p or 720p/24p, with a 180-degree shutter angle, the HVX200 managed an f-stop of f/2.8. The HDX400 imaged the same chip at 100% IRE at f/4.0. The HDX400 is rated at f/10.0 @ 2,000 lux, according to Panasonic.
 
Great info - thanks. That was my primary concern with the HVX - sensitivty and noise.

Add that to the HD rez and 4:2:2 color space (which looks fabulous on the clips so far), it's looking good. Look forward to more tests.
 
A HUGE caveat to the above . . . I cannot say for sure if the HVX200 tested was at an effective shutter speed of 1/48th of a second or not. At one point someone had the camera's shutter speed set to 1/24th of a second. The menu is a bit confusing, in that, in "film mode" you choose the shutter speed by setting film-style "shutter angles." The 1/48th equivalent in shutter angle is a 180-degree shutter. Since there is no "1/48th" shutter setting available in the shutter speed menu when in film mode, I assume that the "off" position in the shutter menu would allow the shutter angle setting (180-degress in this case) to take priority and determine the shutter speed. If in fact the HVX200 as tested was actually at 1/24th, that would make the equivalent sensitivity difference betwen the HVX200 and a 60i HDX400, two-stops, instead of just one.
 
Can someone explain what this means as far as sensitivity compared to the DVX? If the HVX is one stop slower than the HDX 400 how much slower is the DVX? I think this means the HVX is MORE sensitive than the DVX!?!?!? Is that right? Cause I thought everyone was saying the HVX would be less sensitive. If this is so than... WOOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!!
 
Well, despite my best efforts to do a measured test on a crowded show floor, I can't be sure of the HVX' shutter speed at the time of the test. At RESfest, the HVX did seem at least one stop slower than the DVX.
 
In interlaced. But in progressive, they may have been about the same.

That was version 1 though. The current cams are either version 3 or 4, don't remember. AFAIK, they haven't absolutely locked the final sensitivity figures in. My guess, and it is only a guess because the final camera isn't available yet, is the HVX will clock in somewhere around 500 ISO.
 
Barry_Green said:
My guess, and it is only a guess because the final camera isn't available yet, is the HVX will clock in somewhere around 500 ISO.

That's the number a DP from down under is reporting on HDForIndies... think it's an earlier version of the camera...

Jim Arthurs
 
To the horror of the Panasonic rep, I changed the gain settings from all 3 being "0" to 0-6-12 on the demo at DVexpo. He knew what was coming: 6db was marginal at best.... 12 was unusable. I gave the camera the benefit of the doubt with the lcd monitors.... until I saw the hdx400 with the same gain settings.... couldn't even tell the gain was up.

So... be prepared to light it well or not use a mini35 adapter. Its still a step up from my DVX100.... can't even turn up the gain in 24p mode...
 
geo said:
. . . until I saw the hdx400 with the same gain settings . . . couldn't even tell the gain was up.
HOLY CRAP! What a GREAT idea!!! That's an incredible revelation! I'm a bit relieved to hear someone else confirm my evaluation of the gain-up settings on the HVX200. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong, or had the internal meus screwed up. I agree, +6dB was funky, and +12dB was unusable.
 
thisiswells said:
They've obviously just added more gain by default, thus making +6 look more like +18.

Huh? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your being funny.
db is a mathamatical relationship of the signal amplification. 6db is always 6db.
It's the sensor and circutry that are responsible for how clean the image is at any given amplification.

From whatt I saw the camera is about as clean at 6db as the DVX is at 3db. At least according to my brief fidiling with it. It does get cruncy at 12db but I'd go to 1/24th first. However I did not see this on a CRT just the "Noisy" Pany 17" LCD.
 
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