DV 25 Issues

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Boxcar

New member
Among other cameras, I have an older Sony DSR camera. It gets lots of jaggies on horizontal lines. Telephone lines or bright chrome are especially bad. Shooting most anything else looks great.

Went to demo the new Sony HD camera that just came out. Looking closely at their demo reel I saw the same problems.

I never had this on even my Sony Hi-8 home movie camera. What gives? Is this just a regrettable feature of DV 25.

The Sony tech I spoke to said, "Basically, this is a resolution issue. You don't see it on high-end DV 25 cameras. They have better circuits and larger chips. Also, they have high-end lenses as well, and cost upwards of $50,000".

My conclusion is that all these low end DV cameras are not even up to what used to be 8mm film standards let alone 16mm. And that to get a DV camera that is comparable to any semi-professional standard, you have to pay about $35,000 and up.

The other option is to just live with the problems, which is what I see just about every other DV producer doing.

After all the nonsense I have heard or read to the contrary, this seems about right to me.

Right or wrong?
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

"What are you talking about here?"

I'm not sure what that sentence means. Did I post in the wrong place?

Must be. I now see it says "Technical" under DVX 100, not technical in general.

What should I do repost? Under what?
b
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

I don't know, your post is confusing, lacks supporting evidence, and seems like a troll--maybe that's what's John's asking about. If you think Hi-8 and 8mm look better than DV--that's cool. The DVX100 ( and similar cams) are currently being used for broadcast and theatrical films, that's good enough for most of us. Every format has it's limitations, but all things considered DV25 as implemented in the DVX100 is a lot of bang for the buck.
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

What you are describing is a symptom of interlacing. There are two types of cameras in the DV world, interlaced and progressive.

Interlaced video will always give you problems with any line that is slightly on the diagonal. Generally speaking, you will not get these kinds of problems with a progressive scan camera like the DVX. It really doesn't have as much to do with the "quality" of the camera.

There are also limitations with NTSC DV in general in that any line that is under 2 pixels thick will vibrate on the screen. Some more prominently than others. These problems can be fixed using a little blur to "bleed" the line to a larger thickness.

I'm not sure if this addressed your question or not.
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

"What you are describing is a symptom of interlacing"

OK. Now that makes sense. That and what the camera tech at Sony in Los Angeles said. Apparently, if the chips are big enough and the lens is good enough you can overcome the interlacing issue. He showed me a $50,000 plus camera and tested it right beside mine and it did not have the problem even though it was not a progressive scan camera.

So, aside from the "film look" of progressive scan you also solve this issue of "jaggies" with such a camera.

I am sorry I didn't explain myself better but you were able to answer my question. Thank you.

On another note. Just because a given camera type was used in a broadcast or a feature film, that does not make that a professional camera. I made a 35mm feature on car racing and blew-up some regular 8mm film crash footage someone captured to 35mm and cut it into the picture. For it's purpose it worked great. And that film was shown in every city in the United States.That doesn't mean 8mm film can be used in any but the most extreme circumstance.

Some Hollywood actor uses a DV25 camera for part of his movie and everyone goes nuts. Well it looked lousy compared to the rest of his movie.

Reality TV and others use DV25 a lot, granted. But this stuff goes through tons of processing to get on the air and that ain't cheap. Can you do it? Sure. Can you build a professional career on it? No.

b.
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

"What is your ultimate point"?

Good question. I'm a film guy who wants to go digital. I still have all the film gear but I see the advantages of shooting, cutting, and distributing on one medium. But which camera?

I bought an older Sony DSR camera to try it out. Looks great except for the issues I discovered. I tried to research the problems.

Went to Sony's chief tech center in LA and spent several hours with their top techs. Learned a lot.

Read Scott Billups books and his web site "Pixelmonger.com" He was James Wong Howe's assistant years ago. He is no nonsense on digital cameras. Everyone should read his evaluations.

I want to shoot, edit, and release on DVD without ever having to leave the original native format. I think that is where DV 25 and maybe DV50 shines.

If I shoot another movie for theatrical release it is still going to have to be on film for awhile yet. That's my evaluation. Not there yet in DV.

But for my DVD goals I'm trying to find the best camera for me. Everything is changing rapidly and I don't see that camera yet. Maybe someone else thinks the available cameras are good enough. I don't. I haven't seen one yet that is good enough, except in stuff I can't afford. I think its coming though.

That is my ultimate point.

b.
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

That's fair enough.

Now, you've mentioned Sony quite a bit here, but have you tried the DVX or the SDX900? Especially in the progressive modes? What did you think?
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

Boxcar

It sounds as if your budget is bigger than the prosumer $5000.00 camera? Am I correct? Or are you considering between the DVX/XL2 conundrum?
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

I have not tried the DVX or the SDX900.

Seems like there will be some level of Semi-pro, Hi Def, three chip, progressive scan, native 16x9, camera to come out shortly.

I would like to keep the price around $10,000 to $15,000 and get a camera like that. Things are changing so rapidly that it doesn't seem wise to invest more on a personal camera. Better to rent any higher end for now.

With the advent of Hi def DVD, which is almost here, and the home theatre rigs I'm seeing, I think this will change everything. This will be very competitive with theatrical release.

I've seen local guys, where I am, ship 100,000 units of specialty DVDs in politics, sports, lifestyle, etc. This can only grow and in my view lead anything that downloading has to offer for years to come.

Seems to me a producer/director with such a camera that can edit and post in Hi-def and release his own DVDs via a website and "word of the web" will do well if the product is any good.

I realize I am going a little far a field from my original topic but someone asked what I was talking about or what my ultimate point was.

I am very bullish on the impact of the digital world as it relates to my own work and I am trying to re-engineer my film pipeline, which worked very well for me, into something that I think can take advantage of ,what looks to me, like a seismic shift in the entertainment world.

b.
 
Re: DV 25 Issues

IMHO. If you're going digital, go now. Get to know it and practiced in shooting it.
I wouldn't want to try learning all this on a $50,000 rental, at least not on my budget. ;)
 
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