F35: Dumb question for Mitch. Odsy- HD to UHD?

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VinceinLA

Carbonite Member
Sorry if this is the dumbest question ever but could there be some way for the Q7 (or Q8?) to record UHD files by upscaling HD, someday in the future? It would be really cool to be able to deliver UHD from the F35. As good as its HD is, I think it would still look better than most "4k" cameras and certainly more than good enough for producers who think they need UHD. It would also save from having to come up with long explanations down the road as more people (I assume) will request it.
 
I'm sure you'll get an answer from Mitch. The scaling process from HD to UHD is obviously not too intensive, although I believe there are both good and bad ways to do it.

Personally I think you would be better up-rezzing at the last possible stage, as otherwise all you are doing is wasting space on set - where you can usually least afford it.
 
I'm asking because a production will ask for UHD right on the spot. You can't just do it in post all the time, much less tell someone that's how it should be done. Few will want to hear that. If you can offer UHD on the day, the F35 will have a much longer life for many situations.

Wasting space? So don't do it because it uses more storage? You are missing the point.
 
In theory anything is possible, but I don't know how much call we will ever get for it.

The F35 is a lovely camera with a very high resolving image -- for 1080p. But it is resolution-limited. You can't get something from nothing. A simple uprez would be very unsatisfying and blocky, just four pixels copied from one. It would have to be an interpolated uprez in order to look like anything worthwhile. That is not that tough for us to do and in fact I know that we have the programing worked out from another project. But I sincerely question how many clients would ever call for this.

And honestly, we have the integrity of our product to think about. "Creating" UHD from HD may be looked down upon by some, and we don't want to tarnish our image. It's something to think about, but I can tell you right now that it will never happen for the DPX or likely for any compressed 4:4:4 format. Any client who would be willing to accept an uprezzed UHD from an F35 is highly unlikely to want anything more than Apple ProRes 422(HQ). So if that's your deliverable, what level cameras are you really competing against?
 
Seems like giving UHD upscaled from HD to people specifically requesting UHD is a bit disingenuous... What, will you just hope they never actually view it on a UHD monitor/tv or view it at 100% scaling? It would be a real waste to record upscaled UHD when you can get better UHD from just recording high quality HD and upscaling as the last step... You'll probably always get better upscaling from a computer that has lots of processing capability than from an recording appliance that has to use whatever scaling algorithm it is that gives them realtime performance on their low-power hardware.
 
I like to fool producers - maybe a secret menu option - that would be amazing. Like how there is a button in Pro Tools called the "Producer Panic button" or something that lights up but does nothing. Sensor of humor = more sales of O7Q!!! Guaranteed!
 
nyvz said:
Seems like giving UHD upscaled from HD to people specifically requesting UHD is a bit disingenuous... What, will you just hope they never actually view it on a UHD monitor/tv or view it at 100% scaling?
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Not really. If its something that someone is really going to zoom in on 500% and care about something an audience will never see then I'd just rent something else to shoot with. I'd only agree it's needed for FX work otherwise I'd feel 100% fine handing over a nice F35-looking image at UHD, "real" or not.

I'd bet that even in a movie theater 99%+ people couldn't see the difference from an uprezzed F35 clip compared to something like an F55 in 4k, other than the crappy F55 color. Some clients, for example, like to make corporate interview clips for their website and you know that some of those are going to start asking for 4K files even when no one could ever see the difference. If I can earn $100/hour on the side without having to rent something else, it'd be great.

Think about this like when you had to shoot 720p on an F3 for higher frame rates and when you put that in a 1080p timeline... It looks amazingly like it was 1080P originally and is actually cleaner than some 1080p cameras are. Even though the jump to 4K is higher than the 720-1080 jump, I bet an F35 uprez would be similar, plus you are simply approaching the limit of human vision.

Another example to consider is high bit-rate DVD's on HD TV's. The well encoded ones, like the restored Bladerunner collection for example, with a quality uprezzing blu-ray player, can be shockingly good looking on a 1080 TV. The same thing is going on now with blu-rays playing on 4K TV's. It's just approaching the limit of my eyes.

And one more example- I was looking at HD footage and general graphics on a new iMac with the 5K screen. It looked great but it was mainly because the screen itself is smoothing edges/pixels inherently and not because I could tell any difference in the resolution of different file types and fonts, etc. I couldnt get close enough to see pixels that clearly anyway.... so what are we really talking about here? Some extremely subtle difference only annoying camera geeks are going to pick up on? I don't care really.

Thanks Mitch. It was worth asking about anyway.
 
I feel the need to say something else. I think the film/F35/Bolex (and so on) guys are more often being hired for things that the typical DP-with-camera isn't, right? Who else insists on shooting with a huge Sony cinder-block that no one has even heard of or at least seen in person? People want you because you aren't typical and they trust what YOU say because of your past work, right? If you are trusted to deliver what they WANT, not what they think they need, then how is that ever wrong?

Cool idea, maybe the F35 could be hacked to have a setting that simply says "UHD"?! If someone asks, be honest. It's 5.7K.
 
You guys may be fine with fooling your clients, but we as a company are not. Guarantee someone will look at the footage, note that it is not resolving well enough for whatever reason, and then turn around and blame the Odyssey. Or someone else will say "your box says it can turn HD into UHD, but it isn't as sharp as XYZ. I'm going to sue you." We don't need that.

The needs and realities for a manufacturer are different than for an independent shooter. Go get some box that you can stick between your camera and our Odyssey if you want. I can tell you that we will not be adding this function to the Odyssey7Q+ any time soon.
 
Guys, I think we're going about this all wrong. Forget UHD. Forget 4k. The F35 will never be either of those things. Want to know what the F35 is though?


Mega High Definition. Mega High Def. MHD.

And more specifically, it's the only Mega High Def camera on the market! Mega High Def is a qualification reserved for cameras providing true 12bit RGB 4:4:4 uncompressed video from an RGB stripe sensor using a minimum of 6 photosites per RGB video stream pixel. Mega High Def cameras provide global shutter CCD images with exceptional dynamic range and film-like highlight roll-off, all recorded using state-of-the-art logarithmic curves. A MHD camera provides the color, resolution, and motion aesthetics to make every project pop and standout, giving it that professional "wow" you just can't get anywhere else!
 
One of the reasons I love the F65 is people get lured into it because it is 8k/6k/4k or whatever you want to call it, but I would say nearly half of my clients still wind up with 1080P SR Codec stuff - they have the option for high res and sometimes the "lure" is all you need. When it came to "selling" the F35 to a client I usually reel off a bunch of features shot on Genesis or F35, that usually convinced them.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Well, that and the Panavision Genesis. Just to keep it all honest.
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Yes, but you can't buy the Genesis. But yes. I assure you Mitch, we'll run the final marketing materials by Legal.

Guys, it's just marketing. When one phrase have been denigrated, don't defend - make up a new term, and promote the heck out of it.
 
I suppose, in a way, things like this are the logical conclusion of RED's original "dirty marketing".

I recall, quite vividly, them saying "boo hiss to 2MP sensors, up-ressing, pixel shifting".

They neglected to mention the 2MP sensors they hated so much came in threes to generate a 1080P image and never made any claims at being "4K" or anything of the like.
 
Viddovation said:
Guys, I think we're going about this all wrong. Forget UHD. Forget 4k. The F35 will never be either of those things. Want to know what the F35 is though?


Mega High Definition. Mega High Def. MHD.

And more specifically, it's the only Mega High Def camera on the market! Mega High Def is a qualification reserved for cameras providing true 12bit RGB 4:4:4 uncompressed video from an RGB stripe sensor using a minimum of 6 photosites per RGB video stream pixel. Mega High Def cameras provide global shutter CCD images with exceptional dynamic range and film-like highlight roll-off, all recorded using state-of-the-art logarithmic curves. A MHD camera provides the color, resolution, and motion aesthetics to make every project pop and standout, giving it that professional "wow" you just can't get anywhere else!
Click to expand...

^ This :thumbsup:
 
Did I tell the story of the engineer at NAB in 2007 (or it may have been 2008)? The short version is Sony had set up the F35 and had that horse footage playing that they first marketed it with. I stopped and my jaw dropped. I said "This is the first time a digital camera has looked like film to me". I didn't know it but one of the top engineers from Sony was standing beside me. He was head of the F35 team (or something along those lines). We talked for 5 minutes and I bought up Red, who was close by, and asked him if he was worried about people buying into their 4k marketing hype. He got very aggitated and almost yelled "Yes ok so if we wanted to stoop to their level we would call this a 5K camera!!" He stopped himself and just shook his head.
 
That horse promo was shot with both the F23 & the F35, if memory serves.

I think both Sony & ARRI have probably had internal fights regarding marketing and engineering when it comes to "4K" cameras. Personally I am genuinely shocked at ARRI doing what they did, but I think the demand for 4K/UHD may have been stronger than they thought.
 
I mean the whole Amira/ALEXA up-rezzing business. When the ALEXA came out, ARRI didn't even like to call it a 2.8K camera - it was a "2K" camera. I think they were probably quite cautious because at the time ARRIRAW recording was still relatively rare.

I cannot imagine ARRI's engineers were anything other than mortified when they got told they had to create a "4K" picture out of the 2.8k/3.2k/whatever sensor. ARRI were one of the companies trying to fight the misinformation that had become common since RED's inception.

I heard the other day that Netflix had "banned" use of the Alexa/Amira for 4K material, however I don't seem to be able to find anything online to corroborate that, so it may be incorrect.
 
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