F55: Does this seem fishy to you? WORRIED ABOUT POSSIBLE FRAUD ---- PLEASE READ

captainjman

captainjman

Well-known member
I purchased an item from the marketplace (I am not naming who from, at least not at this time).

When you purchase an item, don't you expect when using paypal that once the payment is sent (and received into their paypal account) that they will ship the item right away? I sent him the payment (over 2,000 dollars) and his response was "So, I received the money into my PayPal account, but Im just waiting for it to get transfered into my bank account before the package is sent." - pasted from his original message.

Isn't that weird - having to wait until the funds transfer from his paypal to his own personal bank account before sending the package?

So I said I need him to send the item as previously agreed - and to send me a tracking number......

Three days pass and he says "Sorry. I've been incredibly busy. Sent it out a little later than expected.
I mailed it out earlier today, and I just got home. Ill get you the tracking # in a bit. Need to deal with some s*%t first." - pasted from his following original message

Isn't that fishy - that he had the time to log into DVXuser.com, then check his messages, then read my email, then type out that message, BUT - didn't have the time to simply type in the tracking number that he says he already has??

What would you think, and what would you do?

Jason
 
Yeah, that's a little weird. But you should still have some time on your Paypal buyer protection plan. I'm not sure what the dollar limit is, but if he never sends it or sends the wrong thing, you can report to Paypal and they should be able to refund you from his account.

It sounds more likely that this seller is disorganized and unprofessional than an actual scammer to me.
 
Call ebay and paypal, at least let them know what is going on. If you paid paypal with a credit card you could cancel the charge but you would most likely get negative feedback from the seller if you do. In our business eBay is a necessary evil, you have to do your homework on the seller by carefully checking his feedback. I won't buy or sell to someone with little to no feedback or a low feedback score. BTW thanks for the positive feedback you sent me :) Good Luck.
 
When I've sold to people who were complete unknowns to me (ebay), I specifically tell them that I'll ship once the funds have cleared from paypal in to my bank acct. I however go out of my way to keep in good contact with the buyer and show them exactly who I am via my website etc. This si the main reason I try selling items here first to "known" people before putting it on ebay. Just as you did. Hope it all works out
 
I've told buyers, as well as been told by sellers, to wait for the money to actually clear transfer from PayPal to the actual bank account.

This is not weird to me at all.

I suspect the rationale behind it is that if the buyer complains to PayPal that they never received the item they bought from the seller, PayPal will shoot first and ask questions later. ie. they can freeze the sellers account or WORSE give the money back to the buyer who might be the actual scammer. PayPal has been known to take some unreasonable authority so if you leave the money sitting in your paypal account be warned that its paypal in fact who controls it.

What a crazy world we live in, but it is what it is.
 
starcentral said:
I've told buyers, as well as been told by sellers, to wait for the money to actually clear transfer from PayPal to the actual bank account.

This is not weird to me at all.

I suspect the rationale behind it is that if the buyer complains to PayPal that they never received the item they bought from the seller, PayPal will shoot first and ask questions later. ie. they can freeze the sellers account or WORSE give the money back to the buyer who might be the actual scammer. PayPal has been known to take some unreasonable authority so if you leave the money sitting in your paypal account be warned that its paypal in fact who controls it.

What a crazy world we live in, but it is what it is.
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Aren't you supposed to send items sold with signature required? In such case buyer's signature will serve as a proof that the buyer has received the item sold. That's what I do - I never try to transfer money from PayPal account until I get a confirmation that the buyer actually has what he paid for. PayPal should act as an intermediary and escrow agent since in transactions like this all the risks should be divided equally between the two parties.
 
captainjman said:
I purchased an item from the marketplace (I am not naming who from, at least not at this time).

When you purchase an item, don't you expect when using paypal that once the payment is sent (and received into their paypal account) that they will ship the item right away? I sent him the payment (over 2,000 dollars) and his response was "So, I received the money into my PayPal account, but Im just waiting for it to get transfered into my bank account before the package is sent." - pasted from his original message.
Click to expand...


No, I don't think it's that weird.

There are Paypal scams run where as soon as the "buyer" receives a tracking number, they reverse the transaction and Paypal will give the scammer back their money. I've heard this story at least twice on Reduser.

Frankly, I just google the heck out of anybody I buy or sell from. Most people legitimately in the business have an online trail, and identifiable business references. I do not ship items until the money is safely in my hands. Most buyers understand that.

15 years of doing this I have yet to be bitten, but I have indeed been scared by the odd availability our freelance life gives us for such things. But I've been on both sides of it. Sometimes I've not been able to send something out the day I thought I would because a client/job gets hairy and I'm simply just not able to do it (14-15 hour shoot days will do that). Unexpected prep on the runup to a job will do that.

Most importantly, after 20 years in the business, you just get a 6th sense of who the flakes are and who are not.
 
Yeah, it can be a little nerve wracking for sure. I bought a MacPro and the guy didn't ship for two weeks! I heard everything from car broke down, couldn't find a box, lost the address, family issues, etc. The delivery came as I was starting to fill out the claim.
 
To answer questions:

Item was not on ebay, it was listed here in the marketplace. I am lucky that I didn't accept his offer to send the money as a gift (and save 3%) and to send it for goods because if I had there would be no recourse. He was going to send me a money request as a gift, but I said no and sent it as goods (and added 3%) whew!!

Because it was not from ebay I have no way of knowing his feedback. On ebay I don't do business with people with no feedback - but here you can't do that!

item was just over $2000

I've been using paypal and ebay since 2000 and I never once heard of waiting for funds to clear paypal and transfer to an external bank before shipping. My proof of that is look at ebay listings and see how so many offer 1 day handling or 2 day handling - and we know that transfers take 3-5 business days!

I appreciate your responses - I am surprised to hear that others do this regularly - my only request is that if you do have that policy to please let it be know prior to someone paying... because saying that AFTER someone pays you looks like it's a problem. Personally, if someone said that they will wait for it to be transferred I would choose to pass on the item, but not saying thats how you are going to do it until after funds have been transferred is a huge red flag - paypal thinks so too by the way! - it looks like someone is trying to get away with cash, and to not even start investigating until well after the their is long gone... but hey, if thats okay with your buyers AHEAD OF TIME, then thats cool.

So I called paypal and told them what happened - I simply read my emails and his emails and they said they are opening a case- and that if the item does not arrive in the next 10 days that I would get a refund, even if he got the cash transferred they could get it back from him if he is found guilty, the user agreement allows them to take funds back too! but that in most cases unless there is proof of fraud they eat the cost themselves and both parties leave with their money!
 
I think Dennis and I were both pretty clear that we notify buyers of this BEFORE a purchase is made. We are also both very transparent on who we are here so the seller can thoroughly research us. Lastly, if they dont like the terms they can easily take their business somewhere else. For buyers here on DVXUser with established history's who are obviously professionals, I've sent items immediately.
 
It looks like things are going to be fine-

To those few who believe in not shipping until they cash out PLEASE make sure to discuss this ahead of time and not bring it up only after payment.

Not knowing that this was this persons modus operandi - I am sure you call would have felt as I had - having used paypal, why did he need to make a clean exit before shipping! it was scary with nearly 2100 bucks on the line, with a user that despite has been on here for a long long time and posted so many many times- had ZERO feedback here! Ughhh my heart sank

To answer questions I've gotten:

1. Yes - I was protected by paypal
2. Yes - they told me that it is required to notify them at the first hint of a problem - they were very happy I called


Just a thought - knowing that PayPal can and will reach back into a sellers bank account to recoup funds if found to be at fault, what purpose does it serve to do this?
Also, doesn't the buyer deserve less fear? If the seller gets the money and doesn't send the item, isn't he demanding more protection than the buyer now gets- and all this after he has both the item and the money in hand?

Id like to do a poll - how do you do that on here - how many people sell in this fashion, and how many buyers would think it's appropriate? Is this something that a moderator must do?
 
PayPal's customer service is diabolical. If a buyer disputes a purchase, they take the money first and then get around to answer questions at some time in the future. I've had a situation where a buyer made a dispute by mistake (they didn't recognise the sellers name on the statement), we resolved it straight away, both buyer and seller emailed PayPal to confirm within hours of the dispute being raised. Despite this, PayPal still removed the money from our account, even though they did not return the money to hers. We had taken the precaution of drawing down the account to zero on regular occasions, so their action threw us into negative. They then chased payment for months, also exchanged the money to euros, and then back to GBP (adding extra loss due to the differing exchange rates). Due to the precautions we took, we didn't actually lose any money, all it cost us was the time and frustration of dealing with faceless idiots on the end of a long phone queue system.

I expect they are still chasing the money, I've long since shut down that email address and no longer deal with PayPal, so no idea what status the account is in. They certainly never tried to dip their hands into our bank account though.
 
captainjman said:
To answer questions:

Because it was not from ebay I have no way of knowing his feedback. On ebay I don't do business with people with no feedback - but here you can't do that!
Click to expand...

Well, that's not actually true. You can leave positive, neutral, or negative feedback on a DVXuser through their profile portal as long as you have a thread link to tie it to.
 
Finn -

I know that there is a feedback page for every member- but very few people actually use it. In this case the person has over 2000 posts, and I found out he sold other items from people here on DVXuser - and yet no feedback is available. That is what I was talking about. I have asked for people to leave feedback when I buy and sell here - and I have 400 percent more feedback than a guy who has been here for years. Thats a real problem.
 
Maybe there are a lot of rip off artists in video / cinema - the first day I came here I saw a post about a repeat con artist renting gear and not returning it, etc etc. I have been in many other forums from cars to computer,.... you name it - and I haven't seen so much distrust. It's really disconcerting!

I have used paypal for over a decade and never once had a problem. And in the long run everyone gets what they deserve, something you can't say for sending cash and not use paypal and get stiffed. Even if people do tell a lie in a little while it is all worked out.

Let me ask you this - if you take the money and cash out, then take it out of your account so paypal can't get to it- and is coming after you for years- what keeps that SELLER from having a fair level of protection...because it gives the seller the upper hand.

Star - I like you, but how would you feel about it if this wasn't about someone you are friends with?. I tried to keep it anonymous but I guess that didn't work, I think if you are honest with yourself you will agree that if the situation were different, and the same thing happened with someone you don't know you would have been concerned. Also- I don't know the seller, I am relatively new here - to me he is just as much a stranger as I am to him. And he has no feedback because people didn't take the time to fill it out. It's a shame, but all I had to go on was the number of posts he made, but heck, he could be a jerk with 2000 post or a said- who know?

J
 
captainjman said:
Let me ask you this - if you take the money and cash out, then take it out of your account so paypal can't get to it- and is coming after you for years- what keeps that SELLER from having a fair level of protection...because it gives the seller the upper hand.
J
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In order to have a Paypal account, you have to link it to a valid and working line of credit. You also agree to the terms that Paypal has the right to seek retribution from you, and they will. So it doesn't really matter if your money is still in your account or not, Paypal can suck it right out of your checking, or credit card. And if you've issued a stop-payment on your card, well, that's what collection agencies are for.

My point is that if you're going to steal money, Paypal is not a good way to do it. Western Union, on the other hand...
 
captainjman said:
Star - I like you, but how would you feel about it if this wasn't about someone you are friends with?. I tried to keep it anonymous but I guess that didn't work, I think if you are honest with yourself you will agree that if the situation were different, and the same thing happened with someone you don't know you would have been concerned. Also- I don't know the seller, I am relatively new here - to me he is just as much a stranger as I am to him. And he has no feedback because people didn't take the time to fill it out. It's a shame, but all I had to go on was the number of posts he made, but heck, he could be a jerk with 2000 post or a said- who know?

J
Click to expand...

I honestly didn't know who your were actually dealing with until after my original post and I also made it pretty clear that I have done the same thing, as well as had the same thing done to me, and for those transactions I've had, they were with people across the border and ones I had never dealt with in the past. So yes I have been there myself. In once case the seller had 2 posts and I wired him $6000 through paypal. In another case I sold my F3 to a complete stranger in the USA and it I had the patience to deal with the buyer on the phone, show him my websites, credentials, etc.. and all was good.

In the end if you're too nervous to deal, or not sure who you're dealing with its best not too. I completely understand how fearful it can be doing transactions with strangers but if its that nerve racking then probably better you avoid it in the future or look for ways to comfort your thoughts ie. ask for phone number, ask for personal and/or business related website, references, etc..

:)

So far the only one time I got ripped off online was in fact through an ebay sale for $500 for a retail software package. The seller managed to convince me to wait and wait and wait and then after 45 days because I didn't open a case I missed the boat and neither ebay or paypal at the time would do anything about it. I learned my lesson.
 
"In the end if you're too nervous to deal, or not sure who you're dealing with its best not too. I completely understand how fearful it can be doing transactions with strangers but if its that nerve racking then probably better you avoid it in the future or look for ways to comfort your thoughts ie. ask for phone number, ask for personal and/or business related website, references, etc.."

Dennis is right and there are no two ways about it. I have bought and sold on here for years and never had an issue. I do my homework like everyone should and check the person out. The number of posts a person has is less of an issue for me than the number of years he or she has been a member. But whether the seller in in LA or Toronto or London, UK etc. As previously stated most folks buying a several thousand dollar item can ask the seller for refs. His rental house, a couple of production companies he works for...
But if you are really concerned... buy retail.
 
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