FS7: does the fs7 output raw via hdmi?

S

Soldier

Well-known member
Hi all,
To output raw to an external recorder- like the shogun- from the fs7, is it necessary to spend the extra 2 grand on the XDCA-FS7 or is it possible to output it directly via the hdmi?
 
No. I don't even think you can transfer RAW data via the video-oriemted HDMI connection. No camera does it yet at least.

The FS7 outputs a great UHD signal via the HDMI, 10bit amd 4:2:2, with or without VF information. I would bet it will be virtually identical to grade 4 K 10bit 4:2:2 XAVC or ProRes files encoded in LOG vs the Raw version. The image is so robust and you can get any look you want, just without the enormous files.
 
Just to note, the FS RAW format from the FS7 and FS700 is currently only supported by the Odyssey7Q and Sony's own recorder. It is available only via SDI and on the FS7 only with the accessory back.
 
Mitch since you're experienced in that field I would like to hear your take on HDMI raw output. Is it technically possible to transfer a raw signal via an HDMI cable? Or does HDMI only carry encoded video signal?

Many arguments out there on the matter.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
Mitch since you're experienced in that field I would like to hear your take on HDMI raw output. Is it technically possible to transfer a raw signal via an HDMI cable? Or does HDMI only carry encoded video signal?

Many arguments out there on the matter.
Click to expand...
It is technically possible but not a great idea. RAW data can be encoded to be carried in a video stream, you just need to establish a decoder on the other side. The ARRI ALEXA does this with the T-Link RAW data stream, which is carried over dual link SDI cables. Plug them directly into a monitor and the picture looks like some crazy green-yellow Star Trek nonsense, but it is in fact a video signal. But all that means is that ARRI inserted vertical and horizontal blanking pulses and other signal structural elements and clocking so that it would seen as a video signal that could be carried over. The big difference between SDI and HDMI is that HDMI needs a linking between the two ends. There is a transmitter and a receiver circuit and they must "handshake" for the signal to go through.

So if you were to build a device with RAW output over HDMI, you would likely also have to build the device on the other end. And if you are going to do that, you are going to be spending a lot of time and money to make this system work, and it will all be a technical cheat and jumping through a lot of hoops in order to make it work with the limiting factors of the signal path that must be adhered to in order to remain HDMI-compliant. At that point it is likely to be far, far easier to simply add another output port to a camera which is just a proprietary buss connection -- a bunch of pins that carry all the RAW data in whatever way is easiest for you as a manufacturer. That's what is on a camera like the F5/F55.

So short answer is yes it is technicaly possible to send RAW over HDMI, but it is also not particularly attractive or viable a solution.
 
With all due respect to Mitch Gross and the folks at Convergent Designs, it would be remiss to not point out that the Atomos Shogun is supposed to release this month, with immediate support for UHD (3840x2160) in Pro Res 4:2:2 and Cinema DNG; and with true 4k (4096x2160) support and FS700/FS7 raw options planned for later implementation as a free firmware update.

Mind you, Convergent Designs has an excellent track record and has reduced the O7Q base price to $1795 (although marked "Limited Time") which is lower than the Shogun at $1995. However, The O7Q media is more proprietary, and to unlock the raw option is an additional license of $795.

Of course, it's dangerous to buy equipment base on manufacturer future promises, but I think the market is moving rapidly, and if you don't have to have this feature today, just wait.

Really, I think owner operators of the FS7 should take a good hard look at their immediate client base. If you don't have immediate clients who require and will pay for RAW, I say don't buy it. The FS7 will be a popular camera, and if you only get sporadic RAW clients, renting a RAW recorder for that shoot will be more cost effective than owning.

Also, I expect prices for RAW recorders will continue to fall. For instance, if Atomos does release their RAW option inclusive of the $1995 purchase price of the Shogun, Convergent Designs may drop their Sony RAW licensing to increase flagging sales.

If you don't need it today, don't buy it. What's great about the FS7 is it has built in compressed 4k/UHD, which will satisfy clients who don't have the budget for the RAW recorder and post workflow.
 
The op asked about raw through HDMI. The Shogun cannot record 4K Cinema DNG from the FS7 HDMI output, as the output is limited to 10bit, so even if it stores that information in a CDNG wrapper, it's not raw, it's 10 bit 4:2:2 like the ProRes just with bigger files.

The Shogun, "as promised", will record that format through the SDI (and XDCA-FS7 module).

The 7Q is the only option now to record raw out of the FS7 and FS700.
 
Viddovation said:
With all due respect to Mitch Gross and the folks at Convergent Designs, it would be remiss to not point out that the Atomos Shogun is supposed to release this month, with immediate support for UHD (3840x2160) in Pro Res 4:2:2 and Cinema DNG; and with true 4k (4096x2160) support and FS700/FS7 raw options planned for later implementation as a free firmware update.

Mind you, Convergent Designs has an excellent track record and has reduced the O7Q base price to $1795 (although marked "Limited Time") which is lower than the Shogun at $1995. However, The O7Q media is more proprietary, and to unlock the raw option is an additional license of $795.

Of course, it's dangerous to buy equipment base on manufacturer future promises, but I think the market is moving rapidly, and if you don't have to have this feature today, just wait.

Really, I think owner operators of the FS7 should take a good hard look at their immediate client base. If you don't have immediate clients who require and will pay for RAW, I say don't buy it. The FS7 will be a popular camera, and if you only get sporadic RAW clients, renting a RAW recorder for that shoot will be more cost effective than owning.

Also, I expect prices for RAW recorders will continue to fall. For instance, if Atomos does release their RAW option inclusive of the $1995 purchase price of the Shogun, Convergent Designs may drop their Sony RAW licensing to increase flagging sales.

If you don't need it today, don't buy it. What's great about the FS7 is it has built in compressed 4k/UHD, which will satisfy clients who don't have the budget for the RAW recorder and post workflow.
Click to expand...
Not sure I understand your point in this. I was asked about the signal output via the HDMI port on the FS7. Both the Odyssey7Q and the Shogun have SDI inputs, which is the only way the RAW signal is carried from the FS7. I was not particularly pointing out a difference between the Convergent Design product and the Atomos one. I was answering a technical question as to the FS7.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
The op asked about raw through HDMI. The Shogun cannot record 4K Cinema DNG from the FS7 HDMI output, as the output is limited to 10bit, so even if it stores that information in a CDNG wrapper, it's not raw, it's 10 bit 4:2:2 like the ProRes just with bigger files.

The Shogun, "as promised", will record that format through the SDI (and XDCA-FS7 module).

The 7Q is the only option now to record raw out of the FS7 and FS700.
Click to expand...
Mitch Gross said:
Not sure I understand your point in this. I was asked about the signal output via the HDMI port on the FS7. Both the Odyssey7Q and the Shogun have SDI inputs, which is the only way the RAW signal is carried from the FS7. I was not particularly pointing out a difference between the Convergent Design product and the Atomos one. I was answering a technical question as to the FS7.
Click to expand...

Agreed that the original poster was specifically asking about HDMI and whether the XDCA-FS7 was required for RAW. My reasoning for posting that the Shogun would also be a viable option is because of this prior post by Mitch:


Mitch Gross said:
Just to note, the FS RAW format from the FS7 and FS700 is currently only supported by the Odyssey7Q and Sony's own recorder. It is available only via SDI and on the FS7 only with the accessory back.
Click to expand...

Mitch and CD have every right to post here about CD products - they're sponsors after all - I just was adding that the Shogun was another potential option. Mitch's response to a technical question highlighted two specific products. I merely mentioned that a third product would likely also be available soon.

Clarification: I have no business relationship with any of these companies other than as a direct end user. I am posting strictly as a forum member and end user.


EDIT: I just realized that the OP specifically mentions the Shogun in his first post. I understand now why my remarks may have confused some. That said, I think my post does still clarify for other potential readers that the Shogun is an option alongside the O7Q and the Sony recorder, and that it may be the most affordable one. There are two basic reasons for someone to ask if the converter box is required - one is camera size/weight, and the other is the expenditure. To the extent that the Original Poster is concerned about expense, my comments on relative pricing of the Shogun and O7Q remain relevant to the conversation.
 
Last edited:
Well let's say this, the shogun is still not a product. Therefore, when someone asks about recording raw from the F700/FS7 then it's perfectly fine and correct to mention the Sony R5 and Odyssy's 7Q.

When the Shogun is out and working, then if someone asks about the available options, we should mention it along side the two others (that's when it does get the FS700 recording option)

It's a bit unlikely for a company that makes an exclusive product to mention a competitior product from another company that may be released in the future. It's just not right. I am saying this because I see this accusation pointed towards Mith Gross Convergent Design repeatedly, that he/they should mention everytime that there's a another company who will maybe make a product with the exclusive feature they offer.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
Well let's say this, the shogun is still not a product. Therefore, when someone asks about recording raw from the F700/FS7 then it's perfectly fine and correct to mention the Sony R5 and Odyssy's 7Q.

When the Shogun is out and working, then if someone asks about the available options, we should mention it along side the two others (that's when it does get the FS700 recording option)

It's a bit unlikely for a company that makes an exclusive product to mention a competitior product from another company that may be released in the future. It's just not right. I am saying this because I see this accusation pointed towards Mith Gross Convergent Design repeatedly, that he/they should mention everytime that there's a another company who will maybe make a product with the exclusive feature they offer.
Click to expand...

I think what Mitch did is perfectly appropriate. He represents Convergent Designs afterall. I have no problem with what he said. I merely chose to add *to* it, by clarifying something he had no reason to mention.

You say the Shogun is "still not a product". It's scheduled for release this month. The Sony XDCA-FS7 unit *required* for raw output from the FS7 is "Still not a product" until it's scheduled release in December - after the Shogun's scheduled release. Also, if you read my initial post it I make a large point of the the fact that "if you don't need it today, wait - more options are coming at better pricepoints"

How is this in any way off topic?
 
I think it's perfectly appropriate for answers to questions to include the widest possible array of choices. Most of us, who are not sponsors, appreciate our members being as forthright as possible.
As such, thank you Viddovation for your contribution to this thread.

I'm happy that Convergent Designs has helped fill a need with our work, as much as I'm happy with Atomos and their products. Competition among suppliers, is what helps innovation, though it may be uncomfortable for early adopters who shell out bigger bucks. Accordingly, thank you as well Mitch for your posts. We hope CD continues to push the boundaries of price and performance.

More on the Atomos Shogun from Photo Plus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27_JwGKbUMo
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top