F3: Does buying a used F3 makes sense now that the FS700 is getting updated?

[KINOKS]

Like the rather long "Title" says, does it? I was on the fence for a used F3 but this FS700 upgrade got me thinking.

I mean the FS700 is getting S-log, it has variable frame rates, an option to go 4K, etc. etc.
Is it just me or does this FS700 update kill-off the F3? A new FS700 is 6k a used F3 is also arround 6k.

 

[Gene Sung]

Aside from the RAW, which many people (myself included) would have a hard time affording due to the huge hardware cost, workflow hit and the cost of hard drives; the upgrade is pretty disappointing especially since we have to pay extra for it.

Basically, even with the upgrade, the FS700 is still basically a 4:2:0 8bit camera that has 4:2:2 8bit to recorder. From what I understand, the F3 has 4:4:4 10bit to recorder (much better). Many FS700 owners (myself included) would rather have a 10 bit option as opposed to RAW because of the workflow and costs are much better.

So the F3 definitely has it's place because Sony has crippled the FS700 so badly.

But yeah, FS700 high frame rates are nice and it will probably hold it's value better since the F3 is discontinued. For my aesthetic since I do music videos and artistic type pieces, the slow motion is essential, but everyone has different needs.

 

[Alpha Beta Omega]

I got my F3 used last year. Even with the great F5/55 in mind I see no reason to move to something else. For the right price a used F3 is an excellent option. Great IQ, easy to work with, reliable and it has that lovely s-log in 10-bit that is so much better than most other cameras.

 

[KINOKS]

Basically, even with the upgrade, the FS700 is still basically a 4:2:0 8bit camera that has 4:2:2 8bit to recorder. From what I understand, the F3 has 4:4:4 10bit to recorder (much better).

But that's just it, isn't the 8bit output getting upgraded to 10bit with the upgrade? And I think I read somewhere that Dan Keaton from Convergent design said that the HDSDI is 10 bit?

Regarding internal recording - both cameras are crippled here to the same extent. 24mbs AVCHD vs 35Mbs Mpeg2.

@Osslund: I agree. The images coming from the F3 look great.

 

[Gene Sung]

I got my F3 used last year. Even with the great F5/55 in mind I see no reason to move to something else. For the right price a used F3 is an excellent option. Great IQ, easy to work with, reliable and it has that lovely s-log in 10-bit that is so much better than most other cameras.

Which is what is so weird because since the F3 is discontinued, the FS700 should sit below the F5 with 4:2:2 10-bit, but it's such a huge gap between the 2 cameras

It should be

1) FS100: 4:2:0 8-bit
2) FS700: 4:2:2 (but it's still 4:2:0) 10-bit. Or at least 4:2:2 8-bit internal. And No, I don't believe that it's so tied to the hardware that this can't be change.
4) F5 4:4:4 10bit + much better RAW workflow.

Even a 4:2:2 FS700 would have little impact on the F5, which is why it sucks so bad that Sony is crippling it the way it is. With the F3 gone, Sony is not going to have a 10 bit camera besides the F5; which is a big gap IMO.

To me, the FS700 4K RAW interface + recorder is a joke. It's way to huge and cumbersome. The CD Odyessey is way better size wise, but it does not record 4K RAW.

 

[Dan Keaton]

But that's just it, isn't the 8bit output getting upgraded to 10bit with the upgrade? And I think I read somewhere that Dan Keaton from Convergent design said that the HDSDI is 10 bit?

Regarding internal recording - both cameras are crippled here to the same extent. 24mbs AVCHD vs 35Mbs Mpeg2.

@Osslund: I agree. The images coming from the F3 look great.

Dear Friends,

In response to requests from this forum, we did test our (pre-release) updated FS700 in our lab.

We found that the HD-SDI ouptut, in HD mode, was 8-Bits in a 10-Bit word, thus effectively 8-Bits.

We used our specialized HD-SDI analyzer to obtain this info, and to confirm what others had been saying on this forum.

We do not know what the final FS700 hardware/firmware upgrade will offer.

Also, I want to stress that we are speaking of HD 1920 x 1080 here.

The upgraded FS700 can output 2K Raw and 4K Raw using a full 12-Bits linear bit-depth.

We have promised to take this higher bit-depth and then create HD at the full 10-Bits in Avid DNxHD-220x (which is their 10-Bit flavor).

When we create, test, and get our work certified, then we may be able to offer HD in the other very popular code at 12-Bits.

Thus, while the camera does seem to output HD in 8-Bits effective, we will provide a very workable and seamless solution to get 10-Bit or higher in compressed HD with our Odyssey7Q.

And, we may perform other processing to improve the quality of the HD output even further. But I do not want to announce any details until later, until after our team has a chance to breathe!

Just count on us to output the best quality signal possible, using the highest quality images that the upgraded FS700 can deliver.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Grug]

Well, there's your answer! Thanks for the clarification Dan, sounds great.

Another thing to consider is how much additional dynamic range the FS700 will get with the introduction of SLOG. The F3's 13.5 stops are a huge part of the reason it looks so good. And the FS700 will have to gain 2 full stops of DR to match it (which seems unlikely for just a gamma curve).

Personally, I think that with the level of image quality you get with 10-bit SLOG from the F3, it absolutely makes sense to get one - especially at current used prices!

 

[KINOKS]

We have promised to take this higher bit-depth and then create HD at the full 10-Bits in Avid DNxHD-220x (which is their 10-Bit flavor).

That's great. You actually found a loophole and you used it

Okey so the FS700 has 10bits (albeit in a rather large recorder that probably won't fit everybody or most situations - no pun intended), the only thing that remains is DR.
Is the F3s DR really 2 stops larger than FS700? That's a lot. So the FS700 has got only 11.5 stops of DR?

 

[Duke M.]

That's great. You actually found a loophole and you used it

Okey so the FS700 has 10bits (albeit in a rather large recorder that probably won't fit everybody or most situations - no pun intended), the only thing that remains is DR.
Is the F3s DR really 2 stops larger than FS700? That's a lot. So the FS700 has got only 11.5 stops of DR?

If anyone can do it Dan's team can pull it together. For me the other considerations would be price and time. Paying for the upgrade, the recorder and the hardware to support it will likely double the cost of the F700 rig.

On top of that, Sony has been so concentrated on the F5/55 cameras that firmware for the F700 and F3 have both languished. Yeah, I know they said it will be coming for the F700... but they've been saying that for a year. Just like they announced the v1.5 for the F3... then nothing. I'm not counting on any upgrades in my business model until I see them. The F5 and F55 still have a lot of firmware development ahead of them and that's where Sony is pouring resources.

In the meantime the F700 and F3 are the redheaded step children. Tolerated, but not fully loved. As someone else said, why would they want to decrease sales of their flagship models?

 

[KINOKS]

The cost for simply getting 10bit dnxhd won't be that big I think. For 10bit dnxhd you'll need the Odissey not the more expensive model "Q". Is this correct Dan? And no extra upgrades, just a couple of SSDs and that's it?

 

[Duke M.]

The cost for simply getting 10bit dnxhd won't be that big I think. For 10bit dnxhd you'll need the Odissey not the more expensive model "Q". Is this correct Dan? And no extra upgrades, just a couple of SSDs and that's it?

If I understood Dan correctly the FS700 isn't just 8bit internally, but tested as 8bit output. It's padded out with a couple of extra zeros. You'd need the upgrade and the recorder.

"We found that the HD-SDI ouptut, in HD mode, was 8-Bits in a 10-Bit word, thus effectively 8-Bits.

We used our specialized HD-SDI analyzer to obtain this info, and to confirm what others had been saying on this forum."

 

[KINOKS]

Duke yes I know that I'll need the update I would buy a new FS700 with the update already installed. So I don't count the update as an extra cost.

Seeing as both the F3 and the FS700 need an external recorder I don' count adding the Odissey to the FS700 as an extra cost.

With this updated info from Dan - saying that the Odissey will be able to record 10bit video from the FS700 - IMHO the F3 almost gets killed-off. The only variable that's left is the Slog. How much DR is it going to add.

 

[nsoltz]

We don't yet know what, if any, is the cost to upgrade the FS700.

But the F3 and the FS700 are really very different cameras so I think statements such as the FS-700 killing off the F3 are a bit overstated.

Ned Soltz

 

[Alpha Beta Omega]

I just came back from todays shoot and looking at footage from my F3 with s-log and then graded a bit. It looks so fantastic and all the pain of hauling the equipment around is worth it a 1000%.
Actually it went through my mind it would have been back saving to use something like a C300 but when I see these kind of images my face shows a big smile and I wouldn't like to trade the F3 for anything else.

 

[Gary T]

Dear Friends,

In response to requests from this forum, we did test our (pre-release) updated FS700 in our lab.

We found that the HD-SDI ouptut, in HD mode, was 8-Bits in a 10-Bit word, thus effectively 8-Bits.

We used our specialized HD-SDI analyzer to obtain this info, and to confirm what others had been saying on this forum.

We do not know what the final FS700 hardware/firmware upgrade will offer.

Also, I want to stress that we are speaking of HD 1920 x 1080 here.

The upgraded FS700 can output 2K Raw and 4K Raw using a full 12-Bits linear bit-depth.

We have promised to take this higher bit-depth and then create HD at the full 10-Bits in Avid DNxHD-220x (which is their 10-Bit flavor).

When we create, test, and get our work certified, then we may be able to offer HD in the other very popular code at 12-Bits.

Thus, while the camera does seem to output HD in 8-Bits effective, we will provide a very workable and seamless solution to get 10-Bit or higher in compressed HD with our Odyssey7Q.

And, we may perform other processing to improve the quality of the HD output even further. But I do not want to announce any details until later, until after our team has a chance to breathe!

Just count on us to output the best quality signal possible, using the highest quality images that the upgraded FS700 can deliver.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

Hi Dan,
The link below on Sony's website has a me a bit confused, and I'm hoping you can clarify something about the 12 bit raw in the FS700. On that page they talk about 12 bit payload in a 16 bit package but then say that there are 64 times as many colors. Forgive me if you have explained this before but how are you building your raw file? Will they be 12 bit?

It's great to hear that you are still trying to implement 12 bit ProRes 444! It's a beautiful codec that would obviously be perfect complement for the 12 bit linear raw of FS700. Do you think the Odyssey7 will also support the codec?

Hopefully there will be a 10 bit update for the FS700. The second ink is for a beta tester in Japan who says that higher than 8 SDI recording will require a hardware upgrade from Sony. Has Sony mentioned any kind hardware upgrade to your team?

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-h...ms-assets-show-highend-FS700.shtml#/fs700t1_2

https://vimeo.com/66884431

Thanks,
Gary

 

[nsoltz]

There is definitely a hardware upgrade required for the FS-700. My Sony contacts are not revealing to me the exact nature of the upgrade and what it will entail. There will be a prototype unit at Cinegear LA this weekend (June 1-2).

Ned Soltz

 

[KINOKS]

But the F3 and the FS700 are really very different cameras so I think statements such as the FS-700 killing off the F3 are a bit overstated.

Hey, I'm just talking here
Anyway the F3 and the FS700 maybe different cameras BUT they are still in many aspects very similar. They are both S35, none of them is intended for run and gun or ENG, they are both cinema cameras, they both need an external recorder, etc. The only difference in my opinion is theirs form factor, but this is negligible because both of them require rigs. Either one is a good camera to use for narrative films, docs, commercials, music videos, etc. So excuse me I really don't see a reason why I shouldn't compare the two!

If FS700 gets 10bit and if FS700 gets a bit more DR IMHO the F3 is dead and gone to me. Because it will offer everything that the F3 does plus a lot more (super-slow, 2k raw, 4K). So I don't get it - why would you dismiss me so easily!??

There will be a prototype unit at Cinegear LA this weekend (June 1-2).

Ned Soltz

Please report!

 

[Duke M.]

Hey, I'm just talking here
Anyway the F3 and the FS700 maybe different cameras BUT they are still in many aspects very similar. They are both S35, none of them is intended for run and gun or ENG, they are both cinema cameras, they both need an external recorder, etc. The only difference in my opinion is theirs form factor, but this is negligible because both of them require rigs. Either one is a good camera to use for narrative films, docs, commercials, music videos, etc. So excuse me I really don't see a reason why I shouldn't compare the two!

If FS700 gets 10bit and if FS700 gets a bit more DR IMHO the F3 is dead and gone to me. Because it will offer everything that the F3 does plus a lot more (super-slow, 2k raw, 4K). So I don't get it - why would you dismiss me so easily!??

Because at this point it's all speculation. Your trying to compare what the F3 does now, bigger dynamic range, S-Log, low light, etc. with what the FS700 might do later. That and specs on paper don't necessarily mean image quality. The Red One has great specs on paper, but the Alexa (and the F3) blow it out of the water on image quality.

Some specs on paper don't make much difference in real life:

1) RAW: People have been doing beautiful color correcton on video without RAW for years. RAW gives you more latitude, but it isn't a requirement if you expose correctly. The owners of these cameras usually expose pretty well. (Admittedly there is always that one shot...)

2) 2K: The difference between 2k and 1080p is rather miniscule. Most award winning digital moves (Avatar, Slum Dog Millionaire, Benjamin Button, Star Wars, etc.) were shot in 1080p and many more have 1080p inserts that you don't even notice.

3) 4K: A picture is a little sharper in 4k, but stories are not told in resolution. (Frankly I was disappointed that I could see the makeup in the closeups of The Hobbit.)

On the other hand for the F3:

a) Dynamic range: Increased DR lets you see more and is more like the human eye/brain combination. It lets the audience immerse themselves.

b) Low Light: If you can see more in low light you can tell more of the story with moods. (Dark and somber, scary, sad, etc.)

c) Roll off: Skin tones and highlight roll off are two of the really strong points of image quality on the F3 with S-Log. It's very Alexa like. It seems artistic and organic.

d) S-Log and 10bit: F3 has it, but Canon, FS700, etc don't. How it's implimented on data coming off that particular sensor makes a difference.

In addition, firmware has been anounced for both the F3 and FS700, but no one is sure what it will exactly be. Rumors have a habit of being wrong. As of right now, people call an F3 a "baby Alexa." They don't call the FS700 that. Why? Different sensor, different codec, different processor, who knows what else, but you're a bit premature claiming anything either way. But even if the FS700 becomes the great must have camera it won't make the F3 a bad camera. The F3 produces really nice images.

 

[KINOKS]

This is a purely speculative thread, I thought that this was obvious, so that's why I don't see any point in saying that "it's only speculation so let's stop talking about it!". Yeah I know, off-course it's only speculation. Isn't like 80% off topics on dvxuser speculative?

1) RAW: People have been doing beautiful color correcton on video without RAW for years. RAW gives you more latitude, but it isn't a requirement if you expose correctly. The owners of these cameras usually expose pretty well. (Admittedly there is always that one shot...)

You are dismissing a big positive. RAW is not for everyone but still, it's there, you have the option to shoot raw, the F3 doesn't! So I don't see any point in your negativity.

2) 2K: The difference between 2k and 1080p is rather miniscule. Most award winning digital moves (Avatar, Slum Dog Millionaire, Benjamin Button, Star Wars, etc.) were shot in 1080p and many more have 1080p inserts that you don't even notice.

I agree. 2K is the same as 1080p. BUT it's 2k raw continuous at 240fps!!!!

3) 4K: A picture is a little sharper in 4k, but stories are not told in resolution. (Frankly I was disappointed that I could see the makeup in the closeups of The Hobbit.)

Seriously? If you want to talk about story and screenplay go to the appropriate forum. Here's the link -> http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?25-Screenplay-Writing

On the other hand for the F3:
a) Dynamic range: Increased DR lets you see more and is more like the human eye/brain combination. It lets the audience immerse themselves.

Thank you for explaining that, really, I didn't know:love4:

Remember we are speculating and I said "the only variable is DR. If FS700 gets a boost in this department...". So I don't see a point in this statement of yours...

b) Low Light: If you can see more in low light you can tell more of the story with moods. (Dark and somber, scary, sad, etc.)

Again: thanks for being condescending (I'm sure you aren't doing it on purpose).

But the FS700 is also great in lowlight. Not as good as the F3 but close, so I don't see a point this statement either...

c) Roll off: Skin tones and highlight roll off are two of the really strong points of image quality on the F3 with S-Log. It's very Alexa like. It seems artistic and organic.

Again: the FS700 is getting S-log, so the highlights roll-off is probably (remember, this is a speculative thread??) going to get better. Again I don't see a point
in this statement...

d) S-Log and 10bit: F3 has it, but Canon, FS700, etc don't. How it's implimented on data coming off that particular sensor makes a difference.

Again, the FS700 is probably getting 10bit, have you even read the posts above?

In addition, firmware has been anounced for both the F3 and FS700, but no one is sure what it will exactly be. Rumors have a habit of being wrong. As of right now, people call an F3 a "baby Alexa." They don't call the FS700 that. Why? Different sensor, different codec, different processor, who knows what else, but you're a bit premature claiming anything either way. But even if the FS700 becomes the great must have camera it won't make the F3 a bad camera. The F3 produces really nice images.

Not saying the F3 is becoming a bad camera wtf? Seriously every post in this thread has been totally useless... I am speculating, get it? Are you an F3 owner? It seems like you are and that you are felling somewhat threatened by this thread (or that you arent really paying attention to it), if so I understand the semiotics of your post.

(sory for the rant but your's and neds posts kinda made me angry)

 

[lasikdenver]

Kinoks -

please don't sugar coat it, let us know how you really feel! I for one love my F3, would never get an FS700 (it is a toy) and if I wanted to move to anything different would get either F5 or more likely f55. Yes, I have tried the FS700. One more thing, Duke has been perhaps the most helpful person on this site to myself and many others over the last few years and he was just trying to be helpful, not condescending.

Jon