Do you think it's possible to shoot an AMAZING feature for under $10,000?

[pulpfiction007]

I'm going to hedge my bets and agree with both sides here,- having a day job can be a great hinderance to achieving what you want to achieve,(Mr Holland's Opus) but if you are extra determined, you can make it a non factor - but this means giving up on your free time in a BIG way. It means you can equalize the time spent working on your craft with someone who doesen't have a day job, but that person will not have to work (OVERALL) as hard as you to achieve the same goal.
Now - if you have two talented people, but one works extra hard and the other gets by with talent and an average work ethic, guess who comes out on top

Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan - both mega talented, both work tremendously hard and they're the best. If either one of them had to do something else during their extremely rigid practice routines...then one of them would be out of the mix as The Greatest Ever. It's that combo of great talent AND great drive that sets them apart from just about everyone.

 

[David Jimerson]

I am utterly baffled at the idea that if you don't devote your full time and attention to something, you'll still be as good at it as if you do.

But I guess that's why I'm a fount of negativity and the scourge of young artists everywhere. Who knew?

 

[keylight]

Fine. You win. Everyone's the exception to the rule and if one person did it, then anyone can do it, and anyone who says otherwise is just . . . what? Deficient? Jealous? A pessimist? A Debbie Downer?

What took you so long David?! I was told the "no" voters lost way back in post #168.

It's actually how people will respond when someone's trying to impose their views as facts. Not siding with anyone, really.... But, if it's going to get heated then there's no reason to continue the thread...

Nah. I think this is a much better way of responding when you want to impose your views:

keylight, no offense, but you come off as extremely negative and pessimistic person who continues to argue with snarky and sarcastic comments even after you've clearly lost.

or maybe

We're not talking SAG. It can be done, end of story.

Okay, so moving on to this from OldCorpse....

C'mon folks, we're not children... what's next, take my ball and go home to sulk? We're here having a discussion.

Well...

You sound like my dad.

or maybe

Why don't we go ahead and throw in the price of the shirts on the backs of the talent and crew while we're at it? How about the cost of construction of the street we're shooting on? etc., etc., ad nauseum.

All David did was say what's been said before (although perhaps a little more assertively). Barry did it about 450 posts back:

Why don't the folks who say it can be done -- just go and do it?

Let's talk about what you did, rather than what people think they can or can't do.

And J.R. said it too:

THEN GO DO IT.

Oh, and David said it before this latest time:

Yup.

There have been some bold, bold statements made. One hopes they will be matched with deed in the near future. Would be an interesting thread to revisit in 6-9 months.

And that brings us back to David's last post:

Prove it with footage. Today's May 6th. Let's see some amazing moving pictures by August 1st. Because if it's all truly so easy and everyone's so truly amazing as what I'm getting in this thread, then that should be no problem.

So, go do it. Talk is cheap. Typing wastes valuable filmmaking time. Don't say you're working on it; go do it.

I suspect David, Barry, J.R... would all agree with me when I say I would love to be proven wrong. Really.

 

[pulpfiction007]

I am utterly baffled at the idea that if you don't devote your full time and attention to something, you'll still be as good at it as if you do.

But I guess that's why I'm a fount of negativity and the scourge of young artists everywhere. Who knew?

I think your absolutely right about that, given a level field, it's better by far to be able to devote your full time to your craft. But....and this comes from personal experience playing in a band in Seattle. My entire band had day jobs, but we practiced MORE than alot of the guys who didn't... and we got into the best clubs because of that.....but it was REALLY hard work. Every second we weren't working, we were woodshedding, writing songs....not drinking beer, partying, going to movies, etc. That is where you can level the field a bit...but I agree, given the opportunity to not have day jobs, we would have not been better per se, but more able to focus on other aspects (marketing ourselves, and not being so damn tired all the time!)

 

[David Jimerson]

I have never heard ANYONE in any field of endeavor say to young hopefuls, "if you want to make in this biz, get to it in your spare time." No, they all say "devote yourself to it completely." Sensibly so. Reality may dictate that you can't, but how anyone could argue that it's not better if you do is, once again, baffling.

But I guess it's an opportunity for pro sports teams everywhere to cut back on a great deal of payroll. Why pay them to practice and work out full time when they can support themselves with other jobs, practice on their own time, and then show up for the games, for which they would be paid?

 

[Mark Harris]

Typing wastes valuable filmmaking time. Don't say you're working on it; go do it.

Can we close this dumb thread now? This is really the only sensible thing that's been said here that I can see.

 

[pulpfiction007]

I have never heard ANYONE in any field of endeavor say to young hopefuls, "if you want to make in this biz, get to it in your spare time." No, they all say "devote yourself to it completely." Sensibly so. Reality may dictate that you can't, but how anyone could argue that it's not better if you do is, once again, baffling.

Well I am not personally argiung that point at all - It's just that, with many of these creative fields....music and film esp. There are COSTS to just getting started....and unless you're a trust fund kid - You have to have a job at some point to buy gear and have a place to live....there were a lot of band members left to living on the streets and couches because they foolishly thought they were going to hit the big time right away.(Or make living wages from the indie club scene....right)
I would list the hundreds of musicians and filmakers who had day jobs before "making" it, but it would be too long. Yeah, in an ideal world money would grow on trees and people could get living wages in the music or film business right away off of their good looks, but the real world is much harder than that. It's all about priorities....for me not starving or winding up homeless was a bigger priority than devoting EVEN MORE of my time to music....and I practiced more than anybody I knew. But like I said before...I never went to movies, football games, to bars (other than to play) etc etc.

 

[David Jimerson]

I wasn't trying to say that you did, pulp. I know you weren't. Just adding to your post.

 

[Kholi]

Can we close this dumb thread now? This is really the only sensible thing that's been said here that I can see.

Haha. Harris ain't happy!

Everyone has a choice on whether they visit the thread or not. Seeing as how most of the cafe is comprised of a lot of links and no discussion, it's not really hurting anything or anyone who chooses not to participate.

Although, Barry said it forever again, anyway... probably all the talk on the subject that there can be. Now, who's gonna go and do!?

(I'm out, already in post at this very moment. So don't point at me!)

 

[Brian_Rice]

I don't want to be arguing for arguing's sake. Again, on paper it makes complete sense that not having to do anything else all day long except your craft will make you a better craftsman. The science says that this isn't true, that beyond 6 hours per day we are not improving. That means if you work an 8 hour shift and spend 6 hours working on your novel, the effect shouldn't be much different than if you didn't work at all and wrote for 10 hours in your novel.

But that's just what the books say. IMO working actually helps me stay more motivated with the other tasks I need to accomplish. When I've been not working I've been less productive overall. Don't know why this happens, maybe idleness just begets idleness. Maybe when you have the whole day to do something the urgency gets lost. I make my own hours so everything is very structured -- everything needs to be done at a certain time otherwise other engagements get infringed upon or, worse, I don't accomplish my goals for that day.

I haven't worked a 9-5 style job in about 7 years, so maybe my experience is different. But if I didn't have a job to do, honestly, I'd probably be deeply invested in using that time to learn something new. Heck even now I'm in the throws of growing my AE knowledge base. I highly doubt, however, that I would use that "extra" time to work more on filmmaking. 3 hours a day is good for me. Any more than that and I start drifitng.

I remember in college, though, when I used to write prose I'd write for 8-10 hours per day. But then I didn't go to classes, so...lol

I think the best advice is to just do what feels right. Push yourself until you feel yourself doing poorly and then quit for the day. After awhile you'll catch your own personal rythme.

But I don't think a job hurts. For me, it helps.

 

[Zak Forsman]

Haha. Harris ain't happy!

Everyone has a choice on whether they visit the thread or not. Seeing as how most of the cafe is comprised of a lot of links and no discussion, it's not really hurting anything or anyone who chooses not to participate.

Although, Barry said it forever again, anyway... probably all the talk on the subject that there can be. Now, who's gonna go and do!?

(I'm out, already in post at this very moment. So don't point at me!)

it's a great discussion to have going here, but man... a few days ago I holed up in a secret location for three weeks of uninterrupted writing of a micro-budget crime thriller and I keep getting sucked in to checking the recent posts here. I'm going to have to take an axe to the modem, I think. kidding aside, I do have something here that I can do for under $30k at the very least, putting most of that money in front of the camera. can't wait to shoot this sucker in the fall. and I'm working with writers to develop another micro-budget genre picture simultaneously to shoot early next year (best case scenario). I've taken to the idea of returning to a proficient output and doing a large volume of work as a means to learn and develop, while fostering a continued relationship within the community. I know many would stick with shorts, but I think features are a whole other animal and would rather play in that specific sandbox. okay. back to the cave.

 

[Kholi]

it's a great discussion to have going here, but man... a few days ago I holed up in a secret location for three weeks of uninterrupted writing of a micro-budget crime thriller and I keep getting sucked in to checking the recent posts here. I'm going to have to take an axe to the modem, I think. kidding aside, I do have something here that I can do for under $30k at the very least, putting most of that money in front of the camera. can't wait to shoot this sucker in the fall. and I'm working with writers to develop another micro-budget genre picture simultaneously to shoot early next year (best case scenario). I've taken to the idea of returning to a proficient output and doing a large volume of work as a means to learn and develop, while fostering a continued relationship within the community. I know many would stick with shorts, but I think features are a whole other animal and would rather play in that specific sandbox. okay. back to the cave.

Yeah, I'm supposed to be cutting.. keep looking.

Train Wreck!?

Looking forward to what you come up with, man! Can't believe you're crossing into genre(ish) territory. Pretty awesome. Alright, I'm gonna also try to get back to cutting so I can find some time to write.

 

[David G. Smith]

Franz Kafka never worked as a full time writer. His day job was as an insurance clerk if I remember right, and he is one of the greatest novelist of twentieth century. Albert Einstein worked as a patent clerk from 1901 to 1909. During that time he, "...completed his thesis, with Alfred Kleiner, Professor of Experimental Physics, serving as pro-forma advisor. Einstein was awarded a PhD by the University of Zurich. His dissertation was entitled "A New Determination of Molecular Dimensions". That same year, which has been called Einstein's annus mirabilis or "miracle year", he published four groundbreaking papers, on the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, special relativity, and the equivalence of matter and energy, which were to bring him to the notice of the academic world.
By 1908, he was recognized as a leading scientist, and he was appointed lecturer at the University of Bern. The following year, he quit the patent office and the lectureship to take the position of physics docent" (From the Wikipedia post). Sometimes bills gots to be paid and mouthes gots to be fed... You work with what you have to work with, period.

 

[Brian_Rice]

Franz Kafka never worked as a full time writer. His day job was as an insurance clerk if I remember right, and he is one of the greatest novelist of twentieth century. Albert Einstein worked as a patent clerk from 1901 to 1909. During that time he, "...completed his thesis, with Alfred Kleiner, Professor of Experimental Physics, serving as pro-forma advisor. Einstein was awarded a PhD by the University of Zurich. His dissertation was entitled "A New Determination of Molecular Dimensions". That same year, which has been called Einstein's annus mirabilis or "miracle year", he published four groundbreaking papers, on the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, special relativity, and the equivalence of matter and energy, which were to bring him to the notice of the academic world.
By 1908, he was recognized as a leading scientist, and he was appointed lecturer at the University of Bern. The following year, he quit the patent office and the lectureship to take the position of physics docent" (From the Wikipedia post). Sometimes bills gots to be paid and mouthes gots to be fed... You work with what you have to work with, period.

Great post.



And Zak -- You KNOW I'm in line for the pre-order of your first genre flick. Ya heard?!?!?

 

[OldCorpse]

Well, I made a mistake - I should not have mentioned any names, because immediately people start fighting, and then it's on to twisting words, out of context quotes and made up stuff, like:

But I guess that's why I'm a fount of negativity and the scourge of young artists everywhere. Who knew?

Uhh... I never said that. I never said "young artists everywhere". Obviously, I was referring to only those cases where someone is vulnerable, and needs words of encouragement. Some young artists can be incredibly insecure, and when someone negs them out, it can have devastating consequences. I didn't ever say this applies to all artists everywhere, just those few. Let us be completely honest here. Many people remember such unsupportive situations, when they were young and vulnerable, and someone older and whom they trusted, then totally discouraged them. And if someone themselves is negative, it can impact them internally. Negative thoughts and outlook on life rarely lead to amazing achievements. More often they poison the very person who espouses such views. That's just the truth. But on the other hand, I should not have mentioned any names, and for that I apologize, because I don't want to argue pointlessly and don't want to personalize things.

So, with that out of the way, it's all cool and on topic. I don't believe I ever said "don't learn as much as you can" - I just think you should not allow yourself to be stopped by negativity or negative people. I agree with Barry 100%, as, incidentally, I do with David Jimerson - go do it! The proof is in the pudding. The only thing I disagree with some (I'm avoiding names - but it's not Barry, as I think we're on the same page as far as I can tell), is in seeing the glass as half empty - I see it as half full. I don't see obstacles, such as the $10K limit, as a defeat or negative - I see it as a POSITIVE, because it is a perfect inducement to stretch your abilities/creativity to their absolute breaking point. Where some see obstacles, I see opportunities. I look for inspiration - there are inspiring figures right here, Zack, Kholi, Faith, and so many others here who are so passionate about their art. I think that's what we all benefit from, by modeling "can do" attitudes, not "oh noes, can'ts and unpossibles". That's all.

I want to be as encouraging as possible, and I encourage everyone to see the world as completely open. That puts the responsibility on YOU, not on your small bank account, lack of actors, day job, or any of the million "obstacles and limitations". The only thing standing between you and success is you yourself. The world doesn't have it in for you. It's open to all. You have to assume personal responsibility and never shift it to anything or anyone else. Go get it!

Peace to all, and my apologies to anyone whom I may have inadvertently offended, it was not my intent.

And, regarding training - remember, there is such a thing as over-training, this is well understood among athletes. And this is true of all endeavors. Sometimes it's better to hang loose a bit. Give yourself some downtime, and permission to think and experience and see things differently. You may gain incredible and valuable perspective.

 

[Zak Forsman]

thanks for the thoughts, oldcorpse. a good rule of thumb to follow here would be for us to not make the discussion personal. and on the other side, to maintain a thick skin. we've got a good thing going here. let's not blow it.

 

[ullanta]

Can you make an amazing film that faithfully presents the discussion in this thread for less than $10,000? For $10,000,000,000?

 

[David G. Smith]

Can you make an amazing film that faithfully presents the discussion in this thread for less than $10,000? For $10,000,000,000?

We have already read the thread... the movie would never be the same... and of course the movie version fan boys will be vicious in their defense of the flick. Shaaaaaa...

 

[Brian_Rice]

Can you make an amazing film that faithfully presents the discussion in this thread for less than $10,000? For $10,000,000,000?

Dude, I got so much material from here it's sick!

 

[vcassel]

I think, more than anything else, the interspersed calls to "well go do it" rather than discuss it are a bit disrespectful and distracting. To debate the question isn't necessarily a call to action. Besides, if everyone who uses this forum were expected to abandon it to involve themselves in something more practical, what use is it? We come here to discuss things like this, whether they're hypotheticals or not. Why should this particular thread change that?