FS5: Do you ever shoot at 1/25 shutter speed?

Yes T-stops are a constant measurement of light transmission as opposed to f-stops.
 
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Nirv said:
Out of interest Donny what would your shutter be for 50p and 50i (50 fields)?
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Hi Nirv

Ive never shot 50p .. .. in the old days of 50i I would have shutter off.. unless there was flicker shooting abroad.. I don't know for sure but I would guess at 50p frame rate motion blur is less of a worry.. but TBH Ive never shot at 50p.. Im not a techie /pixal peeper at all.. quite the opposite .. but I can see ,in scenes with any amount of camera or action motion a distinct difference in 1/25 compared to 1/50.. @25p.. Im just surprised at the amount of people who say they see no difference.. in an interview sure none..Ive done that plenty of times.. I was just giving my personal view to the original OP.. better to stick with 2 X frame rate as a habit.. esp if you are shooting for other people as Im 100% of the time.. cover arse mode basically..
 
JPNola said:
For what it is worth, I was recently doing bts on a feature film and they were shooting with a 210 degree shutter at 24 fps for a scene that involved two characters in a fist-fight with a lot of fast movement. The DP said they were shooting at 210 in order to better sync with some effects strobe lights that were firing off during the scene. I believe that works out to a 1/41 shutter speed. I was starved for light and thus went to 216 degrees, figuring that if 210 was okay for the film then 216 was okay for the bts.

on a related note...

When doing bts I often try to match the production crew's settings. But many times I find my Fs7 starved for enough light to make a healthy exposure and the production crew, on their Alexas, does not appear to be wanting for light. The Alexa is at 800 ISO and an f/2.8 and the image on the monitors looks plenty exposed. I'm cranking up to 2000 ISO on my Fs7, f/2.8 stop, and the image in my Fs7 is still down in the mud and underexposed. What gives? Is it solely the greater dynamic range of the Alexa over that of the Fs7? Or is it also that the light transmission ability of the film crew's expensive glass is that much better than my lowly Canon L glass? I have encountered this even when the film is on one of the big Optimo 24-290mm zooms, not on primes.

If ISO is a measure of the sensitivity of the image sensor, and two cameras are at the same ISO setting, are they not then equally light sensitive outside of lens transmission ability? Or does an Alexa at 800 iso produce a more bright image ( what on film would have been called a more "dense negative" ) than does an Fs7 at 800 iso, even if both cameras are using the same lens at the same t-stop? I guess I am asking if ISO is universal between all camera sensors.
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Yes sure shutter angle is changed for effect.. eg saving private ryan beach scenes at 90 degrees for a staccato effect.. or for some sync purpose.. or effect in the fight scene..
The Alexa doesnt have any more DR than the Fs7.. Arri Log C is based around the cineon curve .. as is Slog3.. almost identical .. I presume the film is being shot Log C or maybe RAW.. so how they have their monitors set up is anyones guess.. Im sure they are not recording exactly what you are seeing on these monitors.. the DP could have had the DIT fiddle the levels.. for the client /producer or even dir monitors.. or offset LUTs as mentioned..
 
Donny 123 said:
The Alexa doesnt have any more DR than the Fs7.. Arri Log C is based around the cineon curve .. as is Slog3.. almost identical .. I presume the film is being shot Log C or maybe RAW.. so how they have their monitors set up is anyones guess..
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Could it simply be that they are exposing for a specific lit and controlled area, whereas you are trying to capture off-set images, that will be significantly darker?
 
Here we see where ENG / Videography and narrative-style collide, with each group having a very different approach to shutter use.

Aside from Private Ryan's 45deg angle stuff the motion and similar narrative has traditionally been locked into a 180deg shutter and subsequent motion blur and digital cameras in this field have often copied that.

While ENG/News/Events have traditionally used the shutter as a viable exposure tool as opposed to creative one.

Both valid. Both viable approaches.
 
Donny 123 said:
Hi Nirv

Ive never shot 50p .. .. in the old days of 50i I would have shutter off.. unless there was flicker shooting abroad.. I don't know for sure but I would guess at 50p frame rate motion blur is less of a worry.. but TBH Ive never shot at 50p.. Im not a techie /pixal peeper at all.. quite the opposite .. but I can see ,in scenes with any amount of camera or action motion a distinct difference in 1/25 compared to 1/50.. @25p.. Im just surprised at the amount of people who say they see no difference.. in an interview sure none..Ive done that plenty of times.. I was just giving my personal view to the original OP.. better to stick with 2 X frame rate as a habit.. esp if you are shooting for other people as Im 100% of the time.. cover arse mode basically..
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OK, I thought you might've shot at 50p given you do broadcast work.

If you're shooting 50p for broadcast (1080i25) then the correct shutter would be 1/50 not double.

I completely agree with you, anyone with functioning eyesight can see the difference between 1/25 and 1/50 at 25p but until every camera sees in pitch black and has completely noiseless gain there will be those edge cases where an operator wings it with a slow shutter.

Even the best denoisers smear pixels and can introduce slow shutter like artefacts to footage anyway. With so much footage being shot and viewed on mobile phones the audience is much more accommodating of the slow shutter look given they see this one their phones when starved of light. This was the point I was making that Mr 'all the gear and no idea' decided to down vote.

I'd also suggest that not all shows or productions would have the post production budget to do a noise removal pass so the producers may actually thank you for shooting 1/25 in the right circumstance.

There is even another option of using an extremely slow shutter to make it completely obvious to the audience that 'it's really really dark'. It's the skill of the camera op and the relationship with the producer/director. I'm sure we've all seen slow shutter used like this on documentaries where getting the shot is paramount.
 
Nirv said:
OK, I thought you might've shot at 50p given you do broadcast work.

If you're shooting 50p for broadcast (1080i25) then the correct shutter would be 1/50 not double.

I completely agree with you, anyone with functioning eyesight can see the difference between 1/25 and 1/50 at 25p but until every camera sees in pitch black and has completely noiseless gain there will be those edge cases where an operator wings it with a slow shutter.

Even the best denoisers smear pixels and can introduce slow shutter like artefacts to footage anyway. With so much footage being shot and viewed on mobile phones the audience is much more accommodating of the slow shutter look given they see this one their phones when starved of light. This was the point I was making that Mr 'all the gear and no idea' decided to down vote.

I'd also suggest that not all shows or productions would have the post production budget to do a noise removal pass so the producers may actually thank you for shooting 1/25 in the right circumstance.

There is even another option of using an extremely slow shutter to make it completely obvious to the audience that 'it's really really dark'. It's the skill of the camera op and the relationship with the producer/director. I'm sure we've all seen slow shutter used like this on documentaries where getting the shot is paramount.
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Yes I do quite alot of broadcast work.. but have never been asked to shoot 50p.. ( I think its popular with sports though ?).. I haven't even shot 29.97p for ages now either.. its either 25p or even more so now 23.98p.. the universal frame rate for shows being shown internationally.. same with corp stuff.. one thing I have been doing alot more of is HFR .. time lapse used to be all the rage .. now its slo mo.. !.. fun but the cards fill up very quickly !
Again Im not dissing the use of 1/25th @ 25p.. Ive also done it many times.. and in scenes with no motion yes why not.. looks fine.. but I would never do it for every time my exposure was on the low side.. I,d much rather gamble on post fixing it than go to 1/25th.. but yes sure.. Aliens land in the night ,run around and wave there arms around .. I,ll go with 1/5th to get a shot..
 
Donny 123 said:
Yes I do quite alot of broadcast work.. but have never been asked to shoot 50p..
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If you want to shoot anything with the old interlaced aesthetic you have to shoot 50p. I shot 50p for most things in the end because it gave me a half speed slo-mo on tap.



Oh and thanks to the down voter again, you're quite the guy.
 
Trying to think going back pre S35mm digital cameras and shooting for broadcast if anyone ever dictated a shutter speed to me to be used. I don't think so but then I never really shot anything technical for TV. I imagine sports or multicam stuff would be stricter with settings like that.

I do remember filming Sigue Sigue Sputnik live at the Scala for some awful shortlived cable channel where we alternated opening the shutter up to get strobing and light trails and really cheesy effects etc but I think aside from that shutter tended to be made faster rather than slower for everyday work.

As a disclaimer - Never shot news though so more often than not we had lights.
 
Is the upvoting/downvotting lark of any actual importance? Until Nirv mentioned it I was blissfully unaware of its existence. Do reputation points actually get you anything, eg a DVXuser bumper sticker once you're reputable enough?
 
Ivor C said:
Is the upvoting/downvotting lark of any actual importance? Until Nirv mentioned it I was blissfully unaware of its existence. Do reputation points actually get you anything, eg a DVXuser bumper sticker once you're reputable enough?
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All seems a bit of a leftover from the 90s. But I assume if you collect enough upvotes you get your Philip Bloom certificate.
 
Ben Scott said:
Trying to think going back pre S35mm digital cameras and shooting for broadcast if anyone ever dictated a shutter speed to me to be used. I don't think so but then I never really shot anything technical for TV. I imagine sports or multicam stuff would be stricter with settings like that.

I do remember filming Sigue Sigue Sputnik live at the Scala for some awful shortlived cable channel where we alternated opening the shutter up to get strobing and light trails and really cheesy effects etc but I think aside from that shutter tended to be made faster rather than slower for everyday work.

As a disclaimer - Never shot news though so more often than not we had lights.
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In the interlaced days I always set shutter to off..(wasn't needed and you just lost light) and only used it to get rid of flicker in NTSC/PAL countries .. eg 50i in the US.. 1/60th.. and the other way round.. when progressive came along we just followed the film principle.. producers ,prod managers and dir,s dont know about shutter speeds.. often its as much as you can get, to even get the frame rate a day before the shoot.. and now multi codec camera,s has made even more of a pain.. excessive motion blur does look odd and not very nice as does a very narrow shutter staccato look. 180 degree just looks best..still tweek it for flicker... and if it aint broken.. as a freelancer Im still never told what shutter to use.. but if anything looks "odd" or flickers.. its my neck on the block..

AFAIK 50p shooting on a regular basis for broadcast, is only for sports.. Ive never been requested to shoot it .. for any Doc/ Corp/ Commercial shoots..
 
I shoot for a lot of european clients in the US in 50hz. 25p or 50i you need 1/60th to stop flicker under 60hz lights. Except for all the different dslr type cameras also the sony 7s and co. there a 1/40th shutter stops the flicker I don't know why but thats what works. I would avoid 180 degree shutter when shooting 50z in the US or 60hrz in PAL -land.
 
icarusfilm said:
I shoot for a lot of european clients in the US in 50hz. 25p or 50i you need 1/60th to stop flicker under 60hz lights. Except for all the different dslr type cameras also the sony 7s and co. there a 1/40th shutter stops the flicker I don't know why but thats what works. I would avoid 180 degree shutter when shooting 50z in the US or 60hrz in PAL -land.
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Yes you need to change for PAL/NTSC Hz.. 1/48th to 1/50th at 24 no one will see any difference .. same 1/50 to 1/60.. but 1/50th to 1/25th you will, except for very static camera/subject scenes.. dont want to flog a dead horse here.. the OP seemed to be asking is it "usual" to shoot 1/25th.. and I would say no its not .. only when you need the exposure.. and you can see a difference in non static situations .. if the OP is wanting to freelance as a DP its best avoided in most cases..
 
icarusfilm said:
I shoot for a lot of european clients in the US in 50hz. 25p or 50i you need 1/60th to stop flicker under 60hz lights. Except for all the different dslr type cameras also the sony 7s and co. there a 1/40th shutter stops the flicker I don't know why but thats what works. I would avoid 180 degree shutter when shooting 50z in the US or 60hrz in PAL -land.
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Likewise I've done a load of stuff in Europe for American clients at your crazy framerates and will tend to use something around a 172deg shutter to avoid 50hz flicker.
 
Only if you want to play their game. Coming over here with their non-round number framerates making everyone do maths and talk about drop-frame and pulldowns and whatnot... It's a disgrace.
 
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