Do several short shorts, or one longer short?

Randall_Oelerich

Randall_Oelerich

Veteran
I have written/directed a couple of five minute shorts (second one was actually ten minutes, editing down to five minutes for a local film festival). My goal is to produce/direct an indie 80 minute feature in maybe 3 years, in pre-production (story extensively outlined; this will be my 5th feature written).

Question: At this point, would it be better to do 3-4 short shorts (5-10 minutes each), or one longer short (20-30 minutes), to get the experience and prepare for doing a feature? Or just save my money and put the $ I would spend doing the short(s) and put that into the feature? Thoughts?
 
A lot of people are going to tell you to either go short (5-10 minutes) or go full-length. It's usually hard to find a spot for anything in between, especially at the festival scene. I'm just giving this advice from what I've heard, though.

I'm working on a 30 minute short myself. It fits the story I'm working on, but it's an awkward time slot.
 
If you're going to do a longer short, you might as well just do the feature. Keep your shorts in the 5-10 minute range and keep practicing the storytelling and the technical. When you do your feature, the only difference is that it's going to take longer to shoot and longer to post
 
"Long shorts" are a great experience to make, but terrible in terms of attracting interest for further projects - most film festivals don't want to show them, and many people's faces glaze over at the thought of watching a 20 minute film. Is this logical? - not really, as a 20 minute film is actually close to a commercial TV half hour (with ads etc), which we happily watch all the time. But most people (family and friends or potential investors, actors etc) would far rather watch a 5 minute short film. Having seen a zillion terrible short films, some of which seemed hours long, I totally understand why... :)
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
I have written/directed a couple of five minute shorts (second one was actually ten minutes, editing down to five minutes for a local film festival). My goal is to produce/direct an indie 80 minute feature in maybe 3 years, in pre-production (story extensively outlined; this will be my 5th feature written).
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I personally am inclined to recommend the 'short'... not the 'short middy' (I think there ought to be a finer resolution than anything under 90 minutes is a 'short'...

And then have an impressive collection to impress 'money people' with your ability to deliver 'entertainment', so that you can move into the long format of 'feature'.

While in the past, one 'avenue' for moving up was doing commercials, that like any other aspect of The Business seems fraught with difficulties even when one lives in So. Cal. So, I see the short films as on the order of commercials, and so, how one approaches these will give experience in doing 'real' projects.

For example, even if it is 'nobudget', do you do a budget for your shorts.
Do you do storyboards.
Do you do detailed breakdowns of scenes, and generate the various documents that a 'real' production company uses.
Do you measure out your shots.
Do you mark ever scene... have a script person with the attendant doc...

The idea being that every 'short' can be an opportunity to practice these sorts of organizational activities that a 'real' production would have, and usually with a reward of a watchable film.

From some of the questions you have asked in the past it seems you are working on this, but like most things 'practice' makes perfect.. or perfecter...
 
If you feel you need practice, then practice. Don't go leaping into a feature-length project until you're ready. If you're not at the top of your game, all your money and effort will end up wasted.

Practice, get better, refine your craft, and invest in yourself. Don't even think about shooting a feature until the screenplay is absolutely brilliant. Not "good", not "pretty good", but brilliant. And keep honing your skills, making more shorts, getting better and better, while the screenplay sorts itself out.
 
If you want to get a feel for what your really capable of and how you perform under pressure, work on a couple of narrative TV pilots. Particulary where you are working along side of industry veterans. I threw my hat in the ring in this direction last year and when veteran TV writer M.F. McDowell approached me to DP his pilot "La Fontaine". He was stepping in to Direct again and that afforded the opportunities for both of us to have a free exchange of some insigthful information. It also opened some doors up with ICM who are not only repping the pilot but have glommed on to a couple of my projects.
 
Barry_Green said:
Don't even think about shooting a feature until the screenplay is absolutely brilliant. Not "good", not "pretty good", but brilliant.
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Yeah...sadly, failing to do this pretty much defines what is lacking in the overwhelming majority of that alleged '99% of all micro-indie films suck' statistic. And I think it's in substantial part because of a lack of understanding of what actually makes a script good. I'm a perfectly good case in point I think. I've written quite a number of complete and partial short and feature-length screenplays, treatments, outlines, and idea-brainstorms over the last several years, but aside from one feature rewrite for a writer/director (with enough 'co-write' in it to share full credit on the screenplay) and a script consultant role on anther film, I haven't shot any of my own films yet. (Although I *have* shot and produced numerous other projects that weren't strictly 'films' per se.)

But at this point I'm actually really glad I haven't because through all the writing and re-thinking (and then more writing and re-thinking, and then more) I've increasingly come to appreciate:

A) The importance of the quality of the script, and most particularly, the story that underlies it
B) How much I previously didn't understand (A), and more importantly, didn't know that I didn't understand
C) As Barry says, the *absolute necessity* of this being done well *before* embarking on what is often a very lengthy and expensive process

I'm currently working through my latest outline/treatment for a short, and have found a very trusted collaborator/critic to bounce it off of (in addition to other sources for notes and critique I've drawn on previously that I'll go to again once it's actually a script). Even though it's only a short, and arguably, as my first, just a 'practice' one (although aren't they all?), I'm still trying my darndest to make it a little jewel. "Even though it's only a short", it will take me a good chunk of my 'spare time' and likewise cash to make it (since I'm not planning to make a throwaway/cheapie), so I see the same imperative applying: make it a *great* short, or don't bother.

Unless you just want to do what might more or less amount to some technical exercises of course, which is ok...

But not for me.
 
I think I agree, mostly. But, for some people, actually producing their own written material is a way to understanding and realizing how paper translates to motion picture and sound, and how you may need certain things written into a script such as motivations, etc.

I'm definitely a case study of that, because I did spend two to three years writing on my first feature, and now in production I can literally see where the script falls flat etc. I can take that away from this one and learn from it in a way that just writing (at least for me) can't teach you. It's probably NOT the case, but I know I had to be actively in the heat of battle with this script to have these epiphanies, and it's a crash course that's taught me a lot very quickly.

I suppose this is what TedSpencer would call a technical exercise, which is an expensive one for sure, but something that might be needed.

But experiences vary.
 
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Barry_Green said:
Don't even think about shooting a feature until the screenplay is absolutely brilliant. Not "good", not "pretty good", but brilliant. And keep honing your skills, making more shorts, getting better and better, while the screenplay sorts itself out.
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I absolutely 100% agree with this. I'm tired of seeing not even half-baked screenplays put out for production. It's terrible. Stop wasting time having to re-write on set and make sure the script is brilliant (and shootable).
 
Barry_Green said:
If you feel you need practice, then practice. Don't go leaping into a feature-length project until you're ready. If you're not at the top of your game, all your money and effort will end up wasted.
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You got that right. And the operative phrase there is '[my] money', too much on the line for a vanity project. :)

Barry_Green said:
Practice, get better, refine your craft, and invest in yourself.
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Yes, thus why I want to do a number or shorts, write shorts, write features, film shorts.

Barry_Green said:
Don't even think about shooting a feature until the screenplay is absolutely brilliant. Not "good", not "pretty good", but brilliant. And keep honing your skills, making more shorts, getting better and better, while the screenplay sorts itself out.
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I agree completely. Unless my finished screenplay reads as great and a fast nail biting read (it is a a thriller) by several respected critics/mentors, i would not dare waste my time and money producing it. But at this point I consider it in pre-production, because it is just my time on the line for the next year on it-- writing, rewriting, storyboarding, composing, location scouting. If and when it reads great, then on to the next step of getting others involved, LLC formation, casting, etc.
 
I agree with your take as well, Kholi. In spite of my personal relief (now) that I waited to make what surely would have been weaker films that I wrote previously, I fully expect to learn *a lot* more by actually making one when I finally do (hopefully pretty darn soon already!). And much of what I do learn from it will undoubtedly be through my mistakes, generous portions of humble pie being consumed, potentially not-so-pleasant feedback from cast and crew, etc. Not to mention the people who eventually watch the thing and decide to hand me my ass...

...which in fairness to my future-filmmaker-self, happens with all films. Almost every single one off my all-time faves has at least one respected critic that thinks it was a failure (certain Classics being excepted), and usually a lot more than one. So a thick skin is called for, and an ability to coherently parse criticism. Oh the slings and arrows...

But I've said to others many times that one of my objectives in making a first film, no matter how well I attempt to prepare for it, is to get at least some of the inevitable 'beginner mistakes' out of the way. The learning process never ends of course, but it's always much steeper at the beginning. I (like everyone else) need to get through that. It's also one of the reasons that despite Dov Simens' (and many others') admonition to make a feature rather than a short because "no none cares about shorts" (which is largely true), I'm going to go ahead and make the 'training wheels' movie first anyway. And then rinse and repeat as necessary...

Nonetheless, I'm still happy that (like you) I waited until I learned more. Having seen the symptoms enough times of people not being anywhere near adequately prepared, I think it was time well spent. I hope I still think so later on...

Kholi said:
I think I agree, mostly. But, for some people, actually producing their own written material is a way to understanding and realizing how paper translates to motion picture and sound, and how you may need certain things written into a script such as motivations, etc.

I'm definitely a case study of that, because I did spend two to three years writing on my first feature, and now in production I can literally see where the script falls flat etc. I can take that away from this one and learn from it in a way that just writing (at least for me) can't teach you. It's probably NOT the case, but I know I had to be actively in the heat of battle with this script to have these epiphanies, and it's a crash course that's taught me a lot very quickly.

I suppose this is what TedSpencer would call a technical exercise, which is an expensive one for sure, but something that might be needed.

But experiences vary.
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Ted Spencer said:
I agree with your take as well, Kholi. In spite of my personal relief (now) that I waited to make what surely would have been weaker films that I wrote previously, I fully expect to learn *a lot* more by actually making one when I finally do (hopefully pretty darn soon already!). And much of what I do learn from it will undoubtedly be through mistakes, generous portions of humble pie being consumed, potentially not-so-pleasant feedback from cast and crew, etc. Not to mention the people who eventually watch the thing and decide to hand me my ass...
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That's a pretty nice reward, though, honest opinions that actually push you to go further the next time around. And, getting beyond the initial learning curve... which is incredibly steep on a first feature film...
Nonetheless, I'm still happy that (like you) I waited until I learned more. Having seen the symptoms enough times of people not being anywhere near adequately prepared, I think it was time well spent. I hope I still think so later on...
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Admittedly, I HAD to wait, but it was a good thing in the end. The script, while still only "decent" (which is cautioned against, I know) for a beginner attempt, was much worse earlier on. I just got tired of waiting and went for it, with the help of several others and a brand new partner in cinematic crime.

It's been a serious learning experience, and the knowledge keeps getting crammed into my face as I sit here with the footage and chop through it with another editor.

Yikes.
 
One thing I am thinking of doing is to hire an AD who has previous experience as a director of an indie feature, *if* I were to direct my own indie (I might just write/produce, hire a Director who has a proven track record). I think having an AD with experience as an indie director with a proven demo reel could serve as nice 'insurance' to up the quality of a film. Regardless, I am pretty excited about my script, as it has an original premise/twist not done before, and I do have a few feature specs behind me (this is my 5th) and am going to write the hell out of this one, get help along the way from mentors, scott the reader, scriptshark, etc. ~R
 
Kholi said:
The script, while still only "decent" (which is cautioned against, I know) for a beginner attempt...
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"Only decent" it may well be...we won't know until it's done, and even then many will likely disagree. Greatly...

But speaking of the word "great", one thing I've noticed about people who have arguably attained that level (I've been fortunate enough to have worked with quite a few gifted and/or famous folks in both film and music), is that they rarely see themselves as, in fact, great... It seems often to be the very recognition of their *limitations* that drives them to excel, achieving 'greatness' in the eyes of others while they themselves remain almost permanently unsatisfied (at least to a substantial extent). So, they strive to excel even more, become even greater, etc.

Profound recognition of one's own artistic limitations/failings is thus, however paradoxically (and it really isn't), *key* in the recipe for what others will eventually identify as greatness.

My $.02
 
Wow. This is a good thread.

I feel confused myself. I wrote a script that I think is brilliant at 48 pages, but extending it to 90 pages might make it less brilliant.

I also have the resources and drive to shoot it now - and I could really use a new piece on my reel for 2011. It's heavy on special effects.

From this thread you guys are saying there are no venues for a 30 to 40 mins short film. Its 10 minutes or feature length now?

What am I going to do? Now I'm up shots creek without a paddle,
 
All these insights are valid, but for the record, "Bug Crush" is a 36 minute short that won at Sundance and got its director hired to shoot "The Ruins", and Tarantino's "My Best Friend Birthday" is an unfinished feature that he calls "my film school- it didn't come out as good as I hoped, but I learned to make a movie".

make the movie, I say.

edit: wow, just discovered Bugcrush is online:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9fzez_bugcrush-part-1_shortfilms
 
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john threat said:
From this thread you guys are saying there are no venues for a 30 to 40 mins short film. Its 10 minutes or feature length now?

What am I going to do? Now I'm up shots creek without a paddle,
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There are several more variables in the decision process of making a short, short middy, long middy, and feature. I tend to thnk of 'short' as 10 or less minutes. The 'middie' is my own terminology for things running around 30 minutes, and 60 minutes respectively, and of course the official feature weighs in at 90.

Sure you hear about David Lynch making "Eraserhead"(1977), over a 5 year period... and you need to also read of the dedication he had of the people working with him, especially the actors who maintained their 'look' across that span of time... so, sure if you have that kind of vision, and that kind of support... far be it from me to say, make a few shorts instead...

But my observation is that Lynch is a rarity among other filmmakers in that regard. Frequently these days one hears about a director of commercials, that is stories in 30 seconds, maybe 60, or music video directors making the jump to lightspeed feature making.

While this may also play in to how certain visual styles are being cross polinated, the point is, in either case, there's a lot of experience packed into the 'reel' of these types of directors, and so, the 'money bet' will go for people who have this sort of track record.

In the case of Lynch, you also have a multidiscipline person, so if he's not going to a film opening, he can go to a gallery opening of his work... whereas it seems that some set of people I see posting here are not so multifacited...

In terms of 'getting in to fests', there is a certain quantum/quality levels that are in operation, under 10, a program director can 'take a gamble' on showing something, 30-60, is a significant slot, and the bar is raised, feature... even higher.

Unless of course, you are going like I do for the Bugtussel Circuit type fests... then they're happy to get anything watchable... or less...
 
This is just me thinking out loud here (as usual!), so take it with whatever sized grain of salt you like, but I think the biggest single driving force behind the admonition not to make a 'long short' (now there's an oxymoron for ya), is the fact that the vast majority of *all* shorts basically aren't very good (to put it quite kindly), so the *longer* they are, in effect, the *worse* they are. It's one thing to endure 10 minutes of lame-ass screen time before you can move on to the next, hopefully not-so-lame one, but assuming basic suckage is the norm and not the exception, ~30 minutes worth of it is just punishing.

My feeling is if you made a 25-30 minute or even a bit longer 'short' that was truly absorbing, highly entertaining, moved along nicely, and above all *never boring*, that you'd be fine, and might well win festival awards. The trick of course is to accomplish that in the eyes *of impartial viewers* rather than you friends, family, crew, and self, who will likely be *far* more patient with it. The gap between an "I loved it!" comment from the latter versus the former can be oceanic in scale...

'Half-hour' TV shows are 23 minutes, and almost inarguably the best ones are really, really good. Make a 25 minute short as well written, acted, directed, shot, edited etc. (or nearly so) as an episode of [add name of great TV show here], and I think you'd be golden.

Of course, accomplishing that is no mean feat. And failing to do it means you're probably back in the "punishing" category. Which is, like, death...

My $.02
 
Make the length as long as the story demands. If you become tempted to do an arbitrary number of minutes for any other reason, then it will suck. Period.
 
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