Do I really NEED a mixer?
- Thread starter saneproductions
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ian hunter
Well-known member
Oleg 2 said:
you might as well chuck your telly oot the window and buy a Radio, big lad
ian
Oleg,
Of course Tarantino would never use a mixer. It was all ADR.
(LOL)
The Kill Bill movies are probably my all time favorites. Not only is the sound good, he uses music to augment to story so well (watch the scene again where Uma kills Bill and see what I mean) but the picture is so perfect. He uses ECU more than any film maker I've seen lately, and interesting angles all the time.
Most movies today are so predictable: 2-shot, OTS, OTS, MCU, 2-shot, etc. Tarantino breaks this pattern and uses original shots that drive the story and are beautiful at the same time.
Phil
Of course Tarantino would never use a mixer. It was all ADR.
(LOL)The Kill Bill movies are probably my all time favorites. Not only is the sound good, he uses music to augment to story so well (watch the scene again where Uma kills Bill and see what I mean) but the picture is so perfect. He uses ECU more than any film maker I've seen lately, and interesting angles all the time.
Most movies today are so predictable: 2-shot, OTS, OTS, MCU, 2-shot, etc. Tarantino breaks this pattern and uses original shots that drive the story and are beautiful at the same time.
Phil
saneproductions
Veteran
I recieved this message on PM, and I thought it may be helpful to some others asking the same question. They wished to remain anonymous....
"Often, whenever a novice asks for advice, the snob factor of the 'pros' comes to play. They have an ego to defend as well as expensive personal equipment. So their advice is often mixed with over statement saying "anything less than a Sound Devices is crap." Well my friend that is an absolute load of crap!
A true professional has no ego to defend and will offer advice tailored to the individual's situation.
There are two very good, (but not excellent) products for mixers in the $500. range. Sign Video ENG-44 and Rolls MX422. They are basically the same unit. The build quality is no where near that of a Sound Devices but the functionality of both is excellent and most importantly the sound quality is clean and reasonably good. By reasonably good I mean that the mic pre's are about the same quality as a camcorder. If you are doing ENG, documentaries or even full length Indie films, these units are more than acceptable. Also, if you graduate to the next step, 'feature film's' these units will suffice as an emergency backup unit. They are good enough to save your ass so that no one will know the difference that you switched to a lesser product.
Just for the record, I just ordered the Rolls MX422 yesterday and while I can not commentate on the unit's performance yet, I certainly know what I am buying. I am a FOH (front of house) and Recording Engineer with 20 years pro experience and have worked with the ??????? Symphony Orchestra as well as numerous recording acts. I have owned over $500K in equipment and due to my position in the industry have played with millions of dollars worth of gear. I personally own a Soundcraft DC2020 flying fader automated console which at a cost of $80,000. makes a Sound Devices look like a cheap toy.
Don't get me wrong. The Rolls is not an SD, but for my application which is "new to the world of indie film" it get's me to where I want to go with reliability and decent clean sound. Meaning: A pro with a $5,000. Mackie console will make a better product than an amateur with an $80,000. Soundcraft. When comparing the sonic quality of the individual mic pre's between expensive and moderately priced gear, they are by no means night and day. The Sound Devices is only marginally better. You will not be able to tell much difference to the end product if mixed and recorded properly.
I bought the Rolls MX422 for $375! online @ Performance Audio. p.s. B&H says this is their hottest selling small mixer and out sells the Sign Video 3 to 1. They have never had a single unit come back. Though they recommend the Rolls over the Sign Video, they say the SV has slightly better components. Either way it's a toss up. The only thing I like better about the SV unit is that it runs at a lower impedance which means that much longer cable runs are possible. The Rolls has better battery power comes with a carrying bag and also I like the use of pan pots instead of fixed routing switches. It is also a very quiet unit.
Make an informed choice. Listen, but don't be swayed by the so called "pros" including me. And, by all means call the toll free line and talk to the sales reps
Good luck!!"
The opinions stated in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of this station or the management.
"Often, whenever a novice asks for advice, the snob factor of the 'pros' comes to play. They have an ego to defend as well as expensive personal equipment. So their advice is often mixed with over statement saying "anything less than a Sound Devices is crap." Well my friend that is an absolute load of crap!
A true professional has no ego to defend and will offer advice tailored to the individual's situation.
There are two very good, (but not excellent) products for mixers in the $500. range. Sign Video ENG-44 and Rolls MX422. They are basically the same unit. The build quality is no where near that of a Sound Devices but the functionality of both is excellent and most importantly the sound quality is clean and reasonably good. By reasonably good I mean that the mic pre's are about the same quality as a camcorder. If you are doing ENG, documentaries or even full length Indie films, these units are more than acceptable. Also, if you graduate to the next step, 'feature film's' these units will suffice as an emergency backup unit. They are good enough to save your ass so that no one will know the difference that you switched to a lesser product.
Just for the record, I just ordered the Rolls MX422 yesterday and while I can not commentate on the unit's performance yet, I certainly know what I am buying. I am a FOH (front of house) and Recording Engineer with 20 years pro experience and have worked with the ??????? Symphony Orchestra as well as numerous recording acts. I have owned over $500K in equipment and due to my position in the industry have played with millions of dollars worth of gear. I personally own a Soundcraft DC2020 flying fader automated console which at a cost of $80,000. makes a Sound Devices look like a cheap toy.
Don't get me wrong. The Rolls is not an SD, but for my application which is "new to the world of indie film" it get's me to where I want to go with reliability and decent clean sound. Meaning: A pro with a $5,000. Mackie console will make a better product than an amateur with an $80,000. Soundcraft. When comparing the sonic quality of the individual mic pre's between expensive and moderately priced gear, they are by no means night and day. The Sound Devices is only marginally better. You will not be able to tell much difference to the end product if mixed and recorded properly.
I bought the Rolls MX422 for $375! online @ Performance Audio. p.s. B&H says this is their hottest selling small mixer and out sells the Sign Video 3 to 1. They have never had a single unit come back. Though they recommend the Rolls over the Sign Video, they say the SV has slightly better components. Either way it's a toss up. The only thing I like better about the SV unit is that it runs at a lower impedance which means that much longer cable runs are possible. The Rolls has better battery power comes with a carrying bag and also I like the use of pan pots instead of fixed routing switches. It is also a very quiet unit.
Make an informed choice. Listen, but don't be swayed by the so called "pros" including me. And, by all means call the toll free line and talk to the sales reps
Good luck!!"
The opinions stated in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of this station or the management.
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
I love that anonymous PM! It's very inspiring for us who doesn't have the budget to afford devices like Lectros, Sound Devices, Devas, Schoeps, Neumans.
As I'm thinking my PSC DVProMix 3 is good enough for what I do with limits, but I can work around it.
As I'm thinking my PSC DVProMix 3 is good enough for what I do with limits, but I can work around it.
everything is true except one thing -these mixers where build for the market which sorry -not the educated one , with price point in mind give you the minimum to start working and not weep why you need pay so much for your mixer as you payed for the toy camera you use. ( ok hvx is not a toy , but you got my point)
call me a snob or what ever you like , i hate stupid designs, not so good preamp , lousy building quality, bad limitters or untuchtable ones , lousy monitoring ,
bad humidity resistance , bad rf rejection , extremely lousy metering ( ok i hate the vu meters ).
cheapness of construction and pretending they sell you excellent product
( they would not survive with ruff behavior. oh rolls falling apart in the schools i had gave some audio lectures - what never happened to the wendt they have - same baboons operate these 2).
so yes iam a F .U C.K.ING pro , i do my money and depends on what i have between my arms and as the dud said i can take the lousy toy and get out with dissent sound. but i also can fall on my ass as well and loose my client .
so as he prefer to work with 80 grand mixer to eliminate to minimum problems one that give him saif tool which would save him time and will give more opportunity to make from the time he saved making another buck .
i prefer it too -for bigger bank account or more time with my kids .
Now ,the dud decided jump to to water he really dont know , so will he drop a major sum for better mixer?
no, he will investigate the market first with 0( zero) investment hedid as i bet he know how to work as he have some experience and educated enough step out with this mixer from problems he may have ( occurring his knowledge of the equip) .
but this is not the case for most of the people , they already inside the biz and they already involved , so you must take less chances feel the ground with your ass,.
so yes ,i will buy one if i will think i need cheap back up ( since even my SQN ( 5500US) Died 3 months after it arrived .
but i will never invest a single buck on these 2 as my prime tool.
i throw my opinion but you throw your money and make the decisions, not me .that call right to choose and you have to, for one way or the other .
by the way if you read my first response you can live without at all .
about best sellers - best sellers is what they do as proffit . they make 300$ on 302 which cost them 850 us or they do 200 on something that cost them 300(sign video ) , imaybe wrong by few bucks
so now you know what does it mean resselrs best seller
call me a snob or what ever you like , i hate stupid designs, not so good preamp , lousy building quality, bad limitters or untuchtable ones , lousy monitoring ,
bad humidity resistance , bad rf rejection , extremely lousy metering ( ok i hate the vu meters ).
cheapness of construction and pretending they sell you excellent product
( they would not survive with ruff behavior. oh rolls falling apart in the schools i had gave some audio lectures - what never happened to the wendt they have - same baboons operate these 2).
so yes iam a F .U C.K.ING pro , i do my money and depends on what i have between my arms and as the dud said i can take the lousy toy and get out with dissent sound. but i also can fall on my ass as well and loose my client .
so as he prefer to work with 80 grand mixer to eliminate to minimum problems one that give him saif tool which would save him time and will give more opportunity to make from the time he saved making another buck .
i prefer it too -for bigger bank account or more time with my kids .
Now ,the dud decided jump to to water he really dont know , so will he drop a major sum for better mixer?
no, he will investigate the market first with 0( zero) investment hedid as i bet he know how to work as he have some experience and educated enough step out with this mixer from problems he may have ( occurring his knowledge of the equip) .
but this is not the case for most of the people , they already inside the biz and they already involved , so you must take less chances feel the ground with your ass,.
so yes ,i will buy one if i will think i need cheap back up ( since even my SQN ( 5500US) Died 3 months after it arrived .
but i will never invest a single buck on these 2 as my prime tool.
i throw my opinion but you throw your money and make the decisions, not me .that call right to choose and you have to, for one way or the other .
by the way if you read my first response you can live without at all .
about best sellers - best sellers is what they do as proffit . they make 300$ on 302 which cost them 850 us or they do 200 on something that cost them 300(sign video ) , imaybe wrong by few bucks
so now you know what does it mean resselrs best seller
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I mentioned this earlier, and will mention it again - when I recommend things, it is always a value-based recommendation. Everything in my kit has to be paid for with work before I "improve" it (most of the time, anyway). My first mixer was an Azden FMX-20 - now there is truly a piece of crap. I didn't know any better, and bought what was recommended by a retailer in the area. My next mixer was a Behringer 1002 - again, a piece of crap. (But I got this one free, so made it easier to dump it quickly). Etc. Now I have a SD 302 and an Alesis FW16. But, the money I spent to get to this point would have been much better spent getting to this point in the first place.
Another point I wanted to make (I'm rambling a bit...haven't had my coffee yet) is that all of the mixers mentioned (Rolls, SV, SD) are designed primarily for bag work. If you have power, a cart (or even a table) you can get some very good mixers for very reasonable prices. Mackie makes some very good mixers in the $300-500 range. The Alesis FW (interfacing to boomrecorder) was in the $600 range (I don't remember exactly since I got it from American Musical and split the payments...) It is also important to note that the "pro's" are using Cooper mixers that run into the $12K range - so when an SD 302 is recommended, at $1100 or so, there is not much snob factor involved. It is just one of the best tools for bag work.
So, let's see. Did I make any points here? Well, first, buy equipment that suits the projects that you do. Second, buy equipment that fits they way you are going to work on your projects. If you can sit and mix on 90% of your projects, then buy a Mackie mixer and have a Rolls for the 10%. Third, buy the best tools you can afford, or plan on spending a lot more working your way up the quality chain.
(Oh, and BTW, the film I recorded with that crap FMX mixer has appeared in four festivals (3 in L.A.) and is about to be distributed in the U.K. - but I still do not recommend it for more than a door stop.)
Phil
Another point I wanted to make (I'm rambling a bit...haven't had my coffee yet) is that all of the mixers mentioned (Rolls, SV, SD) are designed primarily for bag work. If you have power, a cart (or even a table) you can get some very good mixers for very reasonable prices. Mackie makes some very good mixers in the $300-500 range. The Alesis FW (interfacing to boomrecorder) was in the $600 range (I don't remember exactly since I got it from American Musical and split the payments...) It is also important to note that the "pro's" are using Cooper mixers that run into the $12K range - so when an SD 302 is recommended, at $1100 or so, there is not much snob factor involved. It is just one of the best tools for bag work.
So, let's see. Did I make any points here? Well, first, buy equipment that suits the projects that you do. Second, buy equipment that fits they way you are going to work on your projects. If you can sit and mix on 90% of your projects, then buy a Mackie mixer and have a Rolls for the 10%. Third, buy the best tools you can afford, or plan on spending a lot more working your way up the quality chain.
(Oh, and BTW, the film I recorded with that crap FMX mixer has appeared in four festivals (3 in L.A.) and is about to be distributed in the U.K. - but I still do not recommend it for more than a door stop.)
Phil
saneproductions
Veteran
I do not discount anything anyone here is saying about these mixers. i am totally appreciative that anyone would take their time to help a brother out, so kudos all!
I would normally just get the 302 and be done with it (I tend to buy nicer things rather than buying crap and having to replace it later). I am not saying the less expensive mixers mentioned here are crap, but there are shady looking mixers at BH for $150.
It is possible I should just wait until I can get a 302.
The immeditate needs are... for my boom op to hear what they are doing (I have been recording my nat sound with ME66 on the camera up until now), to get the level controls off the cam- so I don't shake the thing when making adjustments at the end of telephoto if I get hired for an event, to keep my pre-amps from clipping on crap board feeds at live shows, to keep my crappy ME66 from overdriving my HVX if god forbid i need to shoot b-roll outside with nat sound (I will use my new Oktava indoors) and, to just plain look cool!
Now come on guys, would you really spend that $1k on a 302 or would you replace your ME66 with a 416. huh?huh?
Seriously though, thanks Oleg and ptalsky and Alan and Ian and everyone else whot took the time to respond!!
I would normally just get the 302 and be done with it (I tend to buy nicer things rather than buying crap and having to replace it later). I am not saying the less expensive mixers mentioned here are crap, but there are shady looking mixers at BH for $150.
It is possible I should just wait until I can get a 302.
The immeditate needs are... for my boom op to hear what they are doing (I have been recording my nat sound with ME66 on the camera up until now), to get the level controls off the cam- so I don't shake the thing when making adjustments at the end of telephoto if I get hired for an event, to keep my pre-amps from clipping on crap board feeds at live shows, to keep my crappy ME66 from overdriving my HVX if god forbid i need to shoot b-roll outside with nat sound (I will use my new Oktava indoors) and, to just plain look cool!
Now come on guys, would you really spend that $1k on a 302 or would you replace your ME66 with a 416. huh?huh?
Seriously though, thanks Oleg and ptalsky and Alan and Ian and everyone else whot took the time to respond!!
ian hunter
Well-known member
416, and give your boom op an SQN4s and make him/her the sound recordist
ian
ian
saneproductions
Veteran
What is an SQN4s?
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ian hunter
Well-known member
ian hunter
Well-known member
shure used to do a nice little portable mixer fp-4??????
it is not in your price range
also waist of money , i sold one and bought 442 +vacation .
ok seriusly , its one of the best eng mixers , very good preams , maybe not the best argonomics , better faders then 442 , but it cost 6000grand new and it doesnt worth it .yes ian i had a couple of them the iii and the iv ( double stereo bus , they throw half in the next model i ve )
also waist of money , i sold one and bought 442 +vacation .
ok seriusly , its one of the best eng mixers , very good preams , maybe not the best argonomics , better faders then 442 , but it cost 6000grand new and it doesnt worth it .yes ian i had a couple of them the iii and the iv ( double stereo bus , they throw half in the next model i ve )
ian hunter
Well-known member
$6,0000 oleg!!!!!!!!!!
they are £2,000 new ( about $3,600 )
and they are the industry standard in most of Europe, maybe not your thing in the US
but i have 2x Sqn-4s (each about 12 years old) and i still have my SQN-3 which is at least 18 years old, and they all still work a treat.
If you look after your equipment, your equipment will look after you!!!
ian
they are £2,000 new ( about $3,600 )
and they are the industry standard in most of Europe, maybe not your thing in the US
but i have 2x Sqn-4s (each about 12 years old) and i still have my SQN-3 which is at least 18 years old, and they all still work a treat.
If you look after your equipment, your equipment will look after you!!!
ian
sorry to disappoint you i paid 2650 for the iv ( in 1998)
the ive was 2950 , the new one with 5 channels is over 3
you are talking about the small one with the idiotic output layout i sow in my life , no even 1 xlr out ( 3 pin).
my dear you forgot iam not in the states , and i can guarantee you people stopping being assholes pay these sums even it is grate mixer
they have trade in policy now - what mean they are in a bad **** .
for less then AHALF OF THEY 5 CHANNEL YOU GET 442 , YOU ADD 4000AND YOU GET 744 , now tell me what will you buy ?
industry standard -i what is that ?
BBC standard , ZDF STANDART .
I HAVE MY STANDARTS - i dont pay these ridiculous prices they ask for . and since there is enough competition i dont think they would last to long
maybe in England , around the planet they are not really exist anymore .
the ive was 2950 , the new one with 5 channels is over 3
you are talking about the small one with the idiotic output layout i sow in my life , no even 1 xlr out ( 3 pin).
my dear you forgot iam not in the states , and i can guarantee you people stopping being assholes pay these sums even it is grate mixer
they have trade in policy now - what mean they are in a bad **** .
for less then AHALF OF THEY 5 CHANNEL YOU GET 442 , YOU ADD 4000AND YOU GET 744 , now tell me what will you buy ?
industry standard -i what is that ?
BBC standard , ZDF STANDART .
I HAVE MY STANDARTS - i dont pay these ridiculous prices they ask for . and since there is enough competition i dont think they would last to long
maybe in England , around the planet they are not really exist anymore .
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ian hunter
Well-known member
Oleg 2 said:
mmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!
ian hunter
Well-known member
BBC standard, is not a bad place to start.
SQN-4s is the minimum requirement for a sound recordist working on uk National BBC current affairs programmes, you might know better, but this is what i would then class asindustry standard.
the BBC buy their salaryed soundie's SQN's, you might not rate the sqn, or like the sqn, but maybe the BBC might not be wrong ( have you ever thought of that???)
SQN-4s is the minimum requirement for a sound recordist working on uk National BBC current affairs programmes, you might know better, but this is what i would then class asindustry standard.
the BBC buy their salaryed soundie's SQN's, you might not rate the sqn, or like the sqn, but maybe the BBC might not be wrong ( have you ever thought of that???)