Do horror indies make a profit ?

The Polish brothers also already had a track record with a couple feature films, and Billy Bob Thornton was already involved when it was being shopped around and Warner Independent decided to make the movie...

So back to the thread - clarify what you are asking, can a low budget horror film make money? Define low budget first of all, and who is tied to the film or not tied... all huge differences in the end.
 
starcentral said:
Randal, is your idea of low budget in the hundreds of thousands? When you said low budget horror I imagined thousands at most...
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$10,000 to $500,000 (and maybe at $500,000 a B list actor). In that range, I am seeing that the filmmaker puts in years of work from development to selling the film only to at best maybe make back the budget, meaning a sheeetload of work over 2-3 years for $0 profit regardless of box office or other tiers, because distributors just will not buy such low budget films for enough to make more than the budget. The question becomes at what film budget level ($1M? $5M other?) does the budget actually pay the producer or director enough ($50k? $100k? other?) of an annual salary to make it worth it. I mean, if a $1,000,000 budget film pays the producer/director $100,000 out of that budget, that really only works out to about $33,000 a year over a 3 year project or realistically $25,000 a year after taxes. Is that worth it? Maybe, maybe not. Of course we aspiring filmmakers want to make art, that is worth something, but if the money is not there well then why not just make artsy short films that are far cheaper and less time consuming? I am just asking the questions, daring to remove the rose-tinted eyeglasses, I want to see the reality before throwing down too much of my time and money in going the feature film pathway. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, honest, to be shown that on average an indie filmmaker will reap fame and fortune within 5-8 years making a few indie features.
 
starcentral said:
The Polish brothers also already had a track record with a couple feature films, and Billy Bob Thornton was already involved when it was being shopped around and Warner Independent decided to make the movie.......
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No, I meant the Polish brothers started out with a $500,000 film (not The Astronaut Farmer)-- how did they start out with such a budget rather than first doing $50k or $10k or $100k indies?
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
I am sure once I was in production or even pre-production for an indie feature, I would sign up for an annual membership on filmspecifics. Right now I am at the stage of writing a couple of indie budget feature screenplay, wanting to research to strategize what budget level if any to think on, or to go other routes like filming a high quality trailer to pursue a budget of $__, or produce a short version of the story (cf. The Ring, Saw, etc) to obtain financing for a budget of $__. Or, if I learn there is a slim to zero chance of recouping an indie film budget, then the answer might be to forego indie feature production and stick with writing, or shorts for fun, or both. I am just in research mode for now.
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Haven't you read, "nobody knows anything" ?
 
Zak Forsman said:
I don't have a stake in the site, but wanted to say that I have been a member of film specific for over a year now and highly recommend it. It is a great resource to ask questions and learn the business side of the artform from fellow filmmakers and producers who are actively doing it. The private library of podcasts, interviews and other resources are one of a kind. We even hired Stacy to help us find a distribution deal for our two indie dramas with no stars. Two months later, we made a deal. $25/month too high? Cancel your cable bill.
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I joined up on filmspecific, and yes i agree it has been WELL WORTH IT so far, great info there, has completely enlightened me on some potentials for indie film production. Good forum there too, getting good answers to questions I have had about production, budgets, fees, financing. Some nice podcasts there complementing all that. Definitely worth the subscription, although I might come and go on a monthly basis, take a few months to absorb info after a month or two of subscribing. My main focus right now is writing, as 2012 is the year I will be marketing my specs (later in 2012).
r
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
I want to see the reality before throwing down too much of my time and money in going the feature film pathway. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, honest, to be shown that on average an indie filmmaker will reap fame and fortune within 5-8 years making a few indie features.
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I think it is too hard to give you an answer. Everyone's ability, talents, vision and connections are different. I hope that is a point you can accept. Using that as the foundation of understanding, the answer is sort of like it is up to you if you ever become successful. I am not trying to be mean and I understand the merits of cost vs. benefit analysis, but it sounds like you want to know if you won before you even played the game. I think that approach doesn't work well in film.

I think making shorts is a good way to figure out if you love filmmaking enough to go with it for the long haul. It is the Baskin Robbins pink spoon test. I was just reading an article in today's LA Times and the guy has a film at Sundance. He had made a short called Pact (I think that is the name and it played at Sundance) and then a production company asked him to make a feature of it and it also got into Sundance. So make shorts of things that could be turned into features.

This is another situation of a short that got made into a feature (watch the commentary stuff) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460740/

The other option is to work with a more experienced person to learn how the sausage is made and really figure it out while doing it without spending any of your own money.

Only you know what you can do and only you know what is best for you.

Good luck and have fun!

P.S. On a cash budget of 1 million it won't take 3 years if it is any good because in that budget should be your post budget and you probably had pre-sales. These long 2 or 3 year projects typically are for micro budgets. Fast, cheap or good. You can get 2 of the 3.
 
Pre-sales is very rare these days unless you have the track record to have delivered "sellable" movies in the past. And the movie still needs to be good - story, production value, etc. I am working on getting several projects off the ground with a script from an Academy Award winning screenwriter, award winning director, Some A cast and the best we can get is a letter of intent to sell into markets with an estimate of what they think they will do based on all those elements. So while you are reducing risk, there is still risk to the investor, or at least they need an understanding of the return rate of films when each territory is sold off individually. My experience with a sales agent on my last venture in low budget filmmaking was that they sold into four markets with revenue exceeding 5x my budget and I have yet to see a dime because of "expenses". That contract has ended, I am getting control of what I am going to do with it now. You learn along the way, but nothing is a slam dunk.

Michael
 
...back to mentioning filmspecific.com for a second, I just signed up for a year yesterday and have to say being old to film making but new to the actual business side, the first 20 minutes of a podcast I listened to was practically worth it alone. For example Stacey helps clarify and put into perspective what a realistic budget is based on what you might actually get for it in the end.

Highly worth it and recommend it, even if only for one month but a year gives you access to extra resources. Check it out.
 
MichaelP said:
Pre-sales is very rare these days unless you have the track record to have delivered "sellable" movies in the past. And the movie still needs to be good - story, production value, etc. I am working on getting several projects off the ground with a script from an Academy Award winning screenwriter, award winning director, Some A cast and the best we can get is a letter of intent to sell into markets with an estimate of what they think they will do based on all those elements. So while you are reducing risk, there is still risk to the investor, or at least they need an understanding of the return rate of films when each territory is sold off individually. My experience with a sales agent on my last venture in low budget filmmaking was that they sold into four markets with revenue exceeding 5x my budget and I have yet to see a dime because of "expenses". That contract has ended, I am getting control of what I am going to do with it now. You learn along the way, but nothing is a slam dunk.

Michael
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That's not entirely true.

It is true that pre-sales aren't what they used to be, but at the same time neither are the budgets of the films nor the actor's salaries.

When talking about movies with budgets under $3M, there are only a handful of actors who can secure pre-sales. Pretty much all of them once A-listers who are now making B-movies.
But they all have one thing in common, they can still sell a movie in the DTV market. These are people who you see on DVD covers in your local videostore all the time.

It is funny how it works, an A-lister might not be able to secure pre-sales at all.

Take someone like William H. Macy. I would classify him as an A-lister. He's not Brad Pitt or Ryan Reynolds, but he almost exclusively does A-list studio pictures, and when he does an indie, it's usually a drama or such.
He doesn't have a proven track record, you can't go to a distributor and say we got Bill Macy, give us money, because they don't know how it will sell, because he hasn't starred in a DTV movie before, so securing pre-sales with a name like that can be hard if not impossible.

Then on the other hand if you go to a distributor and say you have a $1m+ Action thriller with Val Kilmer and Christian Slater, he can and will secure you pre-sales.
Because these guys have done quite a few DTV Action thrillers before that have all sold well.

And that might all change in a couple of years. Bruce Willis is now starting to do DTV movies. Nicolas Cage's latest movies have performed quite badly at the box office.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if in a few years guys like Willis and Cage are the "new" Kilmer and Slater so to speak.

It is also true that distributors are wary of buying a movie in advance also because many of these low budget productions have had quite bad production qualities before, so many of them are interested in things like who's the director and Cinematographer etc.
But in the end, it's the names that matter, it doesn't matter how many pictures you have produced before if any, but if you have the right names, you can and will get pre-sales.

In my opinion, with Sales Agents you should always disregard the whole "expenses" thing and just make a deal where they will take the commission off the sales and you get the rest, that way you will start seeing revenue from the very start.
The Commission shouldn't be over 30%.

Also if possible you should always try and get a "producer's approval" where you can approve any sales they will do, that way you can prevent them from selling your movie in a package for way too cheap.
 
EuropeanDistributor said:
That's not entirely true. It is true that pre-sales aren't what they used to be, but at the same time neither are the budgets of the films nor the actor's salaries. When talking about movies with budgets under $3M, there are only a handful of actors who can secure pre-sales. Pretty much all of them once A-listers who are now making B-movies. But they all have one thing in common, they can still sell a movie in the DTV market. These are people who you see on DVD covers in your local videostore all the time....
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What you said fits with what I learned on filmspecific.com recently, a budget and funding model used by Adam Cultrano and allegedly other producers in that $1M-$5M budget range. Viz. that presales are entirely possible, in fact the norm, but the deal is done by attaching the right talent, DP, Director, and script.
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
What you said fits with what I learned on filmspecific.com recently, a budget and funding model used by Adam Cultrano and allegedly other producers in that $1M-$5M budget range. Viz. that presales are entirely possible, in fact the norm, but the deal is done by attaching the right talent, DP, Director, and script.
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Yup.

Even though name talent is the most important, that all comes into play.

For example if you make a movie with name talent that you are able to get pre-sales with and you make an action/thriller/crime movie, you should be okay.

Then again if you make a movie with the same actors and you decide to make a sci-fi family drama that takes place on a moon colony in the future, you will have a hard time getting pre-sales with that concept.

Filmspecific is a great place to find information on the business and how it works.
However, as always it's important for every filmmaker to find it all out for themselves, what worked for someone else won't necessarily work for you.

It's also important to know the business and the trends. Things change so quickly, especially the actors who are in demand.
 
EuropeanDistributor said:
However, as always it's important for every filmmaker to find it all out for themselves, what worked for someone else won't necessarily work for you.
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I think it's important to keep in mind, that every career in Hollywood is unique. Every single one of them. Sure, there may be general trends, such as "do a reel and get the feature financed", "my friend knows this actor who owes him a favor and he'll attach" etc. etc., but in the end, everyone's path to success is their own. You can glean some general rules, but for every one, there'll be a million exceptions, to the point where you may be tempted to say "there are no rules", or "nobody knows anything". The reason those phrases strike such a cord, is because of all those millions of exceptions, so that we throw up our hands and say "there are no rules", "nobody knows anything".

I'm as much a fool as the next guy, and as much a dreamer. I too want to make a career out of film. But my approach is not to have any preconceived notions; sure, learn as much as possible, listen to experienced people, but keep your eyes open at all times - you never know when an avenue might open up that nobody has seen before, a lucky way that's just valid for a short time, a matter of luck and special circumstances. It's funny, but when you talk to so many people, it's always "my lucky break was..."; it seems that the luck is random, but as they say, luck favors those who are prepared. So if you want to direct (I do), first try to write. Experiment a bit shooting shorts. Write some more. And keep plotting what you're gonna do - and then be ready to turn around completely and do something the opposite of your plan, because a unique opportunity presented itself.

Regarding the OP. I am in fact planning on directing my own feature, a horror, mostly psychological, with no special effects. Budget - about $10K. Perhaps here's where my approach differs just a tad: I'm NOT expecting to make any money from it. I'm not even expecting to get "discovered" or "noticed" or "develop contacts". If any of these things happen - wow, yay, icing on the cake. But that's like saying "what if I won the lottery?" - great, but my plan does not hinge on winning the lottery. So I don't expect any of those things. I'm doing it, because I'm trying some ideas, experimenting, learning, having fun. That's all I want for my $10K. I don't expect to see a penny's worth from it. It's simply a more fun way to spend the $10K, than throwing it at a roulette table in Vegas. If something actually comes of it - fabulous. But my reward has already been achieved in just the making of the film - the journey itself is the reward and the point, not the destination. That said, I don't plan on simply being frivolous - I do plan to do the best job I know how to make it a success so that when people see it, they are entertained and perhaps even moved.

So, while some may agonize over not getting a return on their feature investment, not getting distribution, not getting this, that or the other... I smile. I smile because I never counted on any of it. I've already won. I had a marvelous time, and I learned a ton, and perhaps, if lucky, I've made some good friends and met some interesting people. But regardless, I love the art form and I love the process, and that is its own reward.

Baby steps. What next? I'll wait to accumulate another $10K, and take what I learned on the first feature, and go ahead and have fun again with the next one! But first things first: my feature #1. Have fun - I know I'm having a ton of it!
 
In the case of Paranormal Activity and Blair Witch... they didn't make much because their offers were low. If either would have tried to raised the bar.... those films may have collected dust on a shelf somewhere. In both cases they were lucky that those films attracted any attention.... they are poor to say the least. In the beginning it will be more about luck than anything else. Unless you are doing something that hasn't been done before.... lots of luck.... just remember that every film student is into the "horror genre".
 
Yep, could pretty well sum it up as luck. Indie theatrical release is RARE. Not to be negative but you have way better distibution options with dvd, vod or direct. Remember how many films a year are actually bought by Sundance, for how much, and the calibre of talent in them.
 
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