DNxHD/DNxHR on O7Q

cuervo

cuervo

Veteran
Seems like it's literally been years since DNxHX was promised for the O7Q. Given the fundamental problems with QT7 (abandoned by Apple, gamma issues, 32 bit, no 4444 support on a PC, etc.), I'm pretty fed up with wrestling ProRes on my PC. When is C-D ever going to fulfill their promises? This is getting very irritating.
 
cuervo said:
When is C-D ever going to fulfill their promises? This is getting very irritating.
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yes. you better shouldn't have talked about dnx when releasing and release it when you have it as a favor. i decided for my odyssey 2(!) years ago because of dnx, even without to know about unlimeted high speed etc, wich came later. all nice but it wasn't the point for me. seeing others come by with dnx later, "easily" is like pain. :( at the moment, when sb ask me what to buy cd isn't my first choise anymore. nice what you guys did extra, but dnx or having possibility to record lut would have been more attractive. i lost my advance with this device very fast, this is what makes me feel sad about everything, even if it started so well...
 
What's your point, Noah? 8-bit FRC and 10-bit panel= 10 bit display. And I'm not sure how you do FRC to get HDR, especially with that much display brightness. The drawback to 1500 nits may well be battery life, however. A real 1500 nit display is pretty amazing, almost bright enough to use outdoors without a hood. Just as a point of comparison, REC709 only goes to 100 nits and conventional wide gamut displays only do about 300 nits.


PLUS, it already has DNxHR, something C-D seems very remiss and balky to provide. Practically every major 3rd party and internal recorders can do DNx. Yet C-D continues to not provide this capability.
 
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cuervo said:
What's your point, Noah? 8-bit FRC and 10-bit panel= 10 bit display. And I'm not sure how you do FRC to get HDR, especially with that much display brightness.
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My point is it's not a 10-bit panel, its an 8-bit panel with FRC which may equal 10-bit display but likely with some drawbacks. I would imagine you get HDR by flickering the backlight between the lowest and highest setting while also flickering the panel between a low exposure image and a high exposure image, basically HDRx in reverse. FRC definitely seems like it might be one of those things that has to be seen before really judging whether this can call itself "10bit" or "HDR". FRC is known for giving a "twinkling" look to interpolated detail and I imagine like other technologies that use temporal interpolation it might bother some people who are sensitive to flickering etc. No doubt you'll see some ghosting if you watch a monitor while it's moving. Hopefully the temporal voodoo happens at a frequency high enough to mitigate most side-effects.

Think 3D shutter glasses or DLP projection or motion interpolation. It'll probably fall somewhere in there in it's effectiveness and side-effects, though comparison to motion interpolation is probably unfair since that has a desired effect that's pretty undesirable...
 
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ahhh IC. All the literature makes a big deal of its 10-bit processing, BUT, if the panel is 8-bit, I agree with you. Thanx for pointing that out. NFG.
 
Hey Mitch,
I recived a newsletter from CD. Is a big announcement is cooming up @ NAB? What about DnX? Do you sell it as a new feature? I wouln't care as long you make it happen. I cannot belive you guys. Is there a special task force working since two years parallel to all the other cd-developers who made all the other things possible, just to bring us the best DnX the world has ever seen? Somehow i don't belive in that and i guess you guy's take more care of not gettin eaten by others how offer very simelar products than you do - but allmost complete from the beginning. but - the best thing to keep the trust of an customer ist not to give him the feeling that you fool or forget him. Some of us payed for a feature which you are not delivering for over two years(!). Thats half of the estimated lifetime of the product and you don't come out with one of the keyfeatures. Poor CD. You had a good start with the odyssey which is a nice product - but friends warned me before: you played the same game on the nanoflash which is jet not capable of the features you promised and caused a lot of trouble in the beginning. a lot of people were sceptical to me, buying a CD. So than everybody said: nice, let's have a look whats happening...as it comes out. and it would have been nice if everything worked well... and now i sit here with my 720 display, still waiting for the mainfeature for me...all advance is almost gone as there are a lot of recorders on the market right now which came out with DnX. I belive you try to seperate yourself from them offering the quad solution asap - which will make you unique again. but i payed allready more than 900 bucks for codecs, among 2900 for the odyssey from the first hour. My intention was to be able to record dnx from all kind of cameras i'm working with and can continiue my archive without transcoding anymore. I calculated that. and you didn*t deliver ... i start repeating myself, but don't you see that it is frustrating? It is not that you had an advance and it was catch up slowly from others - wich would have been ok. I feel lapped without beeing startet right. and i waste time tipping in forums. bye.
 
nyvz said:
My point is it's not a 10-bit panel, its an 8-bit panel with FRC which may equal 10-bit display but likely with some drawbacks. I would imagine you get HDR by flickering the backlight between the lowest and highest setting while also flickering the panel between a low exposure image and a high exposure image, basically HDRx in reverse. FRC definitely seems like it might be one of those things that has to be seen before really judging whether this can call itself "10bit" or "HDR". FRC is known for giving a "twinkling" look to interpolated detail and I imagine like other technologies that use temporal interpolation it might bother some people who are sensitive to flickering etc. No doubt you'll see some ghosting if you watch a monitor while it's moving. Hopefully the temporal voodoo happens at a frequency high enough to mitigate most side-effects.

Think 3D shutter glasses or DLP projection or motion interpolation. It'll probably fall somewhere in there in it's effectiveness and side-effects, though comparison to motion interpolation is probably unfair since that has a desired effect that's pretty undesirable...
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Why the flickering? Since it's OLED, wouldn't it just be able to dynamically adjust the light output of certain pixels/areas? I didn't think OLED had a universal "backlight" for the whole screen, but rather that each pixel if its own light source.
 
jshbckr said:
Why the flickering? Since it's OLED, wouldn't it just be able to dynamically adjust the light output of certain pixels/areas? I didn't think OLED had a universal "backlight" for the whole screen, but rather that each pixel if its own light source.
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The use of the term"flickering" is more of a reference to the nature of FRC, rather than the observable flickering you are referring to. Using an 8-bit panel, whether OLED or not, is counter indicated if the internal processing is 10-bit feeding FRC to an 8-bit panel.
 
In discussing the bit depth and possible "flickering" questions, I believe this is in reference to another manufacturer's product, not the Convergent Design line.
 
Oh great! Now Apple announces it's dropping support for Quicktime on Windoze. Not to mention that QT10 is an outsourced abortion, even on a MAC. What does that mean for the future of ProRes? And when is C-D gonna get DNxHR out onto the O7Q?
 
I hadn't heard of that until you mentioned it, but I've been waiting for Apple to stop supporting Windows. This is a huge issue for Media Composer because they still use QT for a lot of stuff.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/16/04...ty.bugs.is.ending.program.for.windows.133523/

That said, there is an open sourced QT alternative that might allow us to continue using .mov files, and Prores is supposed to be an open standard (but I am still on the cautious side). I've been burned by Apple several times in the past when they decided to just stop selling/supporting something and it vanishes. Anybody remember the QuickTime Streaming Server? Go ahead and look for the Windows and Linux versions, or any trace of those two products.

[edit] I see that the alternative QT has stopped being updated in 2010, I guess we are somewhat screwed. Hopefully FFMpeg will be able to handle things.
 
We are very much actively working on DNxHD, and we are doing so with the recent news of QuickTime issues on Windows machines in mind. It does effect the process but we feel we have a novel and useful solution.

That said, we will have a firmware update soon, but it will not include DNxHD support.
 
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