Discussion of dv.com results

Emanuel said:
OK! Thx for the enlightenment, if you say so. Because is you that are saying...the source is very important and you are a reliable one.

EDIT -- Well...this it came fast today! I just speak for the first but it's true that it can be about any of you. Well, I'm just saying what I'm saying 'cause this bilateral struggle is not democratic :) -- I mean, fair without the others two contenders...and sometimes it's only a question of which brand work harder or not...that is which brand has the best marketing department...but we are here 'cause the motion pictures, at least, I think so...
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Well, I'm not sure if that's good or bad??? :) I don't know how "reliable" I am - I am by no means and expert like Barry. But I am reasonably objective, have no consumer loyalty, and am as honest as I can be.

I just don't understand why the canon was set up so poorly. Perhaps it's because other setups didn't really make a difference?? I find that hard to believe, but it could certainly be true. I don't really know. All I can tell you is it does make a difference with my camera. Will it create a picture you like? I have no idea. But the range of images it can produce is pretty great. That said, it does not have Panny's gamma curve. And I'm by no means suggesting that it does. All I'm saying is that , if it is like the XL2, it could have been made to look much better than it did - I think...

Matt
 
It just seems like none of the settings which could have had a positive affect on the image were utilized (along with killing the sharpnes, dropping the master pedestal way down, etc.).
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No, it's that we didn't know about those particular settings. We knew about some and we went in and adjusted those. We didn't know about the others until it was too late.
 
MattC said:
I just don't understand why the canon was set up so poorly. Perhaps it's because other setups didn't really make a difference?? I find that hard to believe, but it could certainly be true. I don't really know. All I can tell you is it does make a difference with my camera. Will it create a picture you like? I have no idea. But the range of images it can produce is pretty great. That said, it does not have Panny's gamma curve. And I'm by no means suggesting that it does. All I'm saying is that , if it is like the XL2, it could have been made to look much better than it did - I think...
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I think it may be a toss-up... for all we know, other settings may have increased, decreased, or not affected the things being tested. Remember, in the end, these tests didn't look at "overall look"; and there may not have been an expert there that knew how to make the picture "look best"... but I imagine the group of folks there were able to do fairly well at, say, maximizing resolution... for the real world tests, I think the specific expertise will be a lot more important...
 
AshG said:
I have only used an F900 a couple times and I can tell you that in the flat settings everything has sort of a flat pastel like look... XLH is similar in THAT regard.
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Yeah it's true (and that's why, as well, for the Pappas' effect that I'm thinking Canon also -- I like that fill-light-pastel-tone too much after Nouvelle Vague cinema :thumbsup:). A film-out test will say all. And a hands-on approach too. Or at least, it will clear up some...

But crossing the Wilt's article or the F900 dogma, it seems to me more propaganda than anything else. And I like Pappas' work (and his presence is an asset to this forum -- thanks man!) but when it smells like propaganda, it's necessary to denounce. However, I don't work for any s(w)or(d)t of police dvxuser.com department, either. :laugh: Because it can mean a wrong purchase and to break an important investment (and this will not a break even, for sure!) where someone buys some thinking that it is one thing and it's another... Propaganda can be dangerous! That's why not all are saying that this can provide all what your dreams whish. So please, pay attention to all the posted words. And to the profiles, as well. Also why credibility is an important asset, too!

I'm not any brand vendor or I haven't any agenda with any brand. And if once I was :lipsrseal, considering propaganda stuff, that's why this has a name: gratitude.

Good luck to every one!
 
Okay, I dug up the e-mail I sent Adam about resolution numbers factoring in MTF: when Adam first sent me his jiggling resolution test for review, I asked him to comment on what we were seeing, because he drew the line at the point where aliasing begins, but it's obvious that we can clearly see some detail far beyond that point. We then entered into a discussion on what numbers we're seeing at what % of MTF, rather than at just 100%. These are the numbers that I submitted to him (note: the version of the moving chart that I saw did not include the Canon at that time):

Horizontal (as measured in the vertical trumpets):
MTF:---100% 70% 30% 10%
Sony:--500....550. 630. 700
JVC:----680... 700. 730. 800
H720:--450... 480. 500. 520
H1080:-530... 550. 600 720

Vertical (as measured by the horizontal trumpets):
MTF:---100% 70% 30% 10%
Sony:--530... 650. 670. 700
JVC:----550... 600. 630. 670
H720:--525... 550. 630. 650
H1080:-540...600. 630. 660

These numbers are gathered by staring at the resolution wedges and determining certain cutoff points of clarity. At 10% there are occasional details visible, but much beyond that it's total gray mush. And again, it's totally subjective. That's why Adam insisted on putting up a moving side-by-side, so viewers could make their own judgements as to what they're seeing, and not just rely on his interpretation, or mine, or anyone else's.

This is not from the file that Adam posted on DV though. I do have access to the Sony, JVC, and Panasonic footage; I don't have any of the Canon footage. I'll post something that shows the side-by-sides.
 
thefilmaddict said:
It would be great if the clips were available without knowing which camera they came from (sort of a coke vs pepsi test). In a later post, someone could reveal which camera shot each clip. Anyone up for doing that? The results could be interesting.
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I Second that. Let the eyeballs check it out.
 
It was great of all who attributed to the shootout to do so but, I would much rather have preffered actual footage and seen how each camera handled a situation by looks alone. I'm much less a fan of the numbers game than I am of what my eyes can see in an image.

Comparison footage pleeeeeeease!
 
Be careful Emanuel , I'm one of the unbiased ones around here. I don't do " Propaganda " !!!!

If you would read it right!!!!! I'm saying that the XLH1 suffers out of the box being flat like a F900 does stock. Not that the H1 is 100% a F900; Only that it needs tweaking to get maximum performance like a f900 needs....

How funny this is Emanual you say I do Propaganda.

What you don't know is I almost ordered the HVX200 today! Such a Propagandist I am!

pappas

Emanuel said:
Yeah it's true (and that's why, as well, for the Pappas' effect that I'm thinking Canon also -- I like that fill-light-pastel-tone too much after Nouvelle Vague cinema :thumbsup:). A film-out test will say all. And a hands-on approach too. Or at least, it will clear up some...

But crossing the Wilt's article or the F900 dogma, it seems to me more propaganda than anything else. And I like Pappas' work (and his presence is an asset to this forum -- thanks man!) but when it smells like propaganda, it's necessary to denounce. However, I don't work for any s(w)or(d)t of police dvxuser.com department, either. :laugh: Because it can mean a wrong purchase and to break an important investment (and this will not a break even, for sure!) where someone buys some thinking that it is one thing and it's another... Propaganda can be dangerous! That's why not all are saying that this can provide all what your dreams whish. So please, pay attention to all the posted words. And to the profiles, as well. Also why credibility is an important asset, too!

I'm not any brand vendor or I haven't any agenda with any brand. And if once I was :lipsrseal, considering propaganda stuff, that's why this has a name: gratitude.

Good luck to every one!
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Hi Mr. Blonde,

I'm waiting on some film lab tests. I wasn't going to say anything until all testing is complete. I was sent 7 private clips the other day that are awesome looking. However I needed to excersise restraint today, it was tough. The HVX200 rocks. I hope that statement is not to Propaganda though!

Pappas

Mr. Blonde said:
What are you waiting for in determining your decision Pappas?
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Pappas, Are you going to the JVC thingy at the Directors Guild on Tuesday? I'm curious to see that film out. My HVX is already on order but the more footage I see out to film the better. Now if I could just see HVX to 35mm in person.
 
Great article from Adam!

You can't go wrong with any of these cameras.

Well, the HVX rez numbers were confusing. ....

I'd like to see this test done again on another camera.

Kaku's rez results were better than this.

All though I've been waiting for the results of the tests, they
pretty much confirm what Barry and others have mentioned
earlier, nothing's different. We know the HVX did not fair as
well in the rez test.

I'm still sold on the HVX.
:thumbsup:
 
This coming tuesday, helll yeah! I would love to see this, and cover it too! Do you have a link to info.....

At the moment, I am chopping up a few slow mo clips from the 35mm out at Laser Pacific to put up....


FullRez said:
Pappas, Are you going to the JVC thingy at the Directors Guild on Tuesday? I'm curious to see that film out. My HVX is already on order but the more footage I see out to film the better. Now if I could just see HVX to 35mm in person.
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ullanta said:
I think it may be a toss-up... for all we know, other settings may have increased, decreased, or not affected the things being tested. Remember, in the end, these tests didn't look at "overall look"; and there may not have been an expert there that knew how to make the picture "look best"... but I imagine the group of folks there were able to do fairly well at, say, maximizing resolution... for the real world tests, I think the specific expertise will be a lot more important...
Click to expand...



Actually adjusting the MP and setting the Knee to low would have a very notable effect on the range and sensitivity...


ash =o)
 
PappasArts said:
Hi Mr. Blonde,

I'm waiting on some film lab tests. I wasn't going to say anything until all testing is complete. I was sent 7 private clips the other day that are awesome looking. However I needed to excersise restraint today, it was tough. The HVX200 rocks. I hope that statement is not to Propaganda though!

Pappas
Click to expand...

I guess you aren't going to say anything about those seven awesome clips tha tmake you want to go ahead and order the HVX200?
 
Well, finally, you answered me...fine!

PappasArts said:
I'm one of the unbiased ones around here.
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In that particular point and about the HVX fever, I can even agree with you.

I don't do " Propaganda " !!!!
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I'm not so sure but if you are saying, I respect you! And you deserve our attention regarding your efforts and work too. I admire it.

It helps but as I said it can be dangerous to some if you, as me, we know the F900, however, mainly there is who doesn't ever play with a $100,000 camera. It's an excellent marketing point. And you know it so well. You are a smart mind. An intelligent one. You understand me quite well. Maybe my speech is not affordable to some interests. The same that you fight as well when you aren't shut up. And in these moments, I'm with you. The question is, as I said before to Sanjin [in a different context but with the same voluntas (= will to non-latin ones) than you or me] so that's the way how we pursue that it hurts any tolerance.

Only that it needs tweaking to get maximum performance like a f900 needs...
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You see! This kind of comparision it hurts my POV...it's like I said in that previous PM that I sent to you where I protest 'cause one day you were saying it's gorgeous! So, you are unsuspicious... Other day, you are doing FUD with noise stuff or something like that. This method is well known by all with the same age range than you and me. C'mon we are not children! :engel017: I don't speak only to you... The same I can say that this debate it's not off-topic! What does any member of this community need? Truth or propaganda?

And about noise stuff or any other HVX handicap, if you will follow my posts you can see that I don't avoid the subject. On the contrary... But I don't speak about it for to open my mouth now, properly.

How funny this is Emanual you say I do Propaganda.

What you don't know is I almost ordered the HVX200 today! Such a Propagandist I am!
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As I said, I know that you are a man with good taste, so...or maybe you must know better the XL-H1 competitor...:thumbsup: :grin:

I'm joking, I know that, as Adam Wilt called someone, you are a filmmaker, that's why. Now, seriously, last but not least, I also admire your guts against any brand dictatorship like that one episode regarding to post or not the Expo files. I think you did well despite what I could read here about «stolen files» (figurative speech)...but I'm with you, as well, with your free spirit concerning that particular sub-plot. But I cannot say the same about that one Shannon's post link considering the delicate point of the matter and the meaning of how much harmful that story could be to who doesn't deserve that treatment. [For Christ sake! I can even follow Shannon's reasons not yours! You, like me, we were out -- sorry, my non-native english words (sometimes, it's not easy...) but if you weren't the valuable HD technology researcher and post worker that you are, I didn't say it! About the test invitation, I'd say that it's not 'cause your known skills or interest that you weren't invited. Any one has the right to invite or not chez-lui if wish or not. Nevertheless, if you saw some discriminatory delayed-notified kind of treatment, it's not different than the HVX film screening@Laser_Pacific where it was possible to follow really online (@your_website the info was available at least few hours before...just in time :grin: )]

EDIT -- By now I'm throw in the towel 'cause you are in the States and I'm in Europe. I need to sleep and my girlfriend is already calling me... Well, I can see that you already posted without reply... In order to a fair open debate regarding that I'll be out during next hours -- far away from these boards, if you wish you can reach me @my_PM_box as usual.
 
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