Digital Bolex weeks away

[William_Robinette]

I just hope next time they don't try so hard to be different and go retro with the ergonomics.

It's funny because I think the exact opposite. This camera looks to be the most fun to just go shoot since the DVX came out.

Working all the time with F55s, REDs, Alexas all built up isn't fun - it blows. There is too much of everything and it's too heavy. This camera, as I said in the first thread about it, is distilled essence of camera. It just looks fun. As a DP who would pick one up to shoot on my own, there is nothing more appealing.

 

[Razz16mm]

why can't you understand that there are cameras that are mentioned numerous times here that work strait out of the box with ZERO additions, the king of that are the Canon C cameras. And that it's not that some of us are demonizing the d16, heck i, and i imagine most people have all the hope that it turns out even better than imagined, but much of the negativity towards it is due to this pedestal some have put it up on, like it's the jesus camera.

the same thing happened with BMC, but they at least eventually got the camera out the door and now everyone knows all the limitations of those tools and either choose to use them or not. The D16 has been on the backburner for so long, there's really nowhere to go but questioning what's going on with it and will it live up to the wait.

Just because i see zero place for a d16 in my camera bag doesn't mean i think it's useless, it just doesn't fit my uses. As long as the product they turn out hits the crucially important reliability that consumers expect, then who knows how high they can reach? All the power to them. I just hope next time they don't try so hard to be different and go retro with the ergonomics.

I like the Canons. My current video cam is a Canon. Just not interested in any long GOP compressed video camera anymore for my own use, nor in 35mm formats.
There is nothing wrong with the ergonomics of the D16. It is far superior to the BMC line in that respect. It is superior to any DSLR style form factor for hand held motion work without external rigging. I know this because I have shot with 16mm cameras of similar form factor and weight. Much more stable and handier than my current Canon even though it is twice the weight. Take the handle off and the form factor is really not so different from any number of small box cameras.
What has been going on with the D16 is the normal development cycle that any new camera must go through and like any such complex new electronic product it is not done until it is done. You just don't usually get to see that process with most manufacturers.

If you are shooting for commercial markets you use the tool that is most efficient for the kind of production you do or that is in demand by the producers you serve.

If you are shooting for yourself and your own creative muse, you use what will get closest to the end results you seek within your personal budget limits.

 

[jdv]

It's funny because I think the exact opposite. This camera looks to be the most fun to just go shoot since the DVX came out.

Working all the time with F55s, REDs, Alexas all built up isn't fun - it blows. There is too much of everything and it's too heavy. This camera, as I said in the first thread about it, is distilled essence of camera. It just looks fun. As a DP who would pick one up to shoot on my own, there is nothing more appealing.

Preach on! It really does look like it'd be a blast to use. If the batteries last longer than a couple of hours, they could really be on to something.

 

[pulpfiction007]

It does look like a great little camera, I personally just want to see it finally out the door.

 

[indiawilds]

This camera seems to be a labour of love. We need such creators and cameras to spice up the industry. I am not a kickstarter backer. Happy with my C300. Nevertheless appreciate that Bolex is launching only when the output is good. Too many companies have been promising stuff and making their customers unofficial, unacknowledged beta testers. So I definitely value the philosophy of Bolex.

 

[Ted Ramasola]

Ships this week.

http://www.digitalbolex.com/d16-ship-week/

 

[Gillvane]

Ships this week.

http://www.digitalbolex.com/d16-ship-week/

Can't wait to start seeing footage in the wild on youtube and vimeo.

 

[harddrive]

Part of me would really like to see this camera succeed, but I'm just left with so many nagging doubts.

Most important may be ergonomics, as many before me have already commented on. In the professional world, the acid test has to be "if I'm being paid to do a job, and my reputation depends on it, can I trust this equipment?". And whilst quality issues are talked about at length on forums, the question above is as much about usability, workflow and (especially) reliability. And whilst you can paraphrase the saying to "nobody ever got sacked for buying Sony, Panasonic or Canon" the question with lesser known makes is can they rival the reputations of such as those three?

Much has been said about release and shipping dates, and the feeling of "better to get it right late, than wrong on time". Well, maybe. But delay too long and the market moves on. If your specification is OK at conception, delay too long and it can be old hat at launch.

It seems that the chip spec is 16mm, and either 2048 x 1152 (in 2K mode) or 1920 x 1080 pixels (in 1080 mode). I won't even mention the 4K word, but let's be clear that after deBayering that WILL NOT give 2K or true 1080 resolution. It'll be more like 1500x850.

So in that respect at least, then forget about it delivering anything like the sharpness full 1080 is capable off, and that cameras like the F3, the Alexa and similar cameras are capable of. OK, it may be said that "resolution isn't everything", but nowadays for "cinema" the discussion has moved on to "1080 or 4K?" - and I mean true 1080 luminance resolution. Somehow, a 1920x1080 Bayer chipset just seems like yesterdays technology - and that seems even more the case when it's limited to 30p. And isn't s35 really being seen as the benchmark for "cinema" video now?

Not that all that means there's anything wrong with it - just that technology has moved on.

 

[Razz16mm]

Part of me would really like to see this camera succeed, but I'm just left with so many nagging doubts.

Most important may be ergonomics, as many before me have already commented on. In the professional world, the acid test has to be "if I'm being paid to do a job, and my reputation depends on it, can I trust this equipment?". And whilst quality issues are talked about at length on forums, the question above is as much about usability, workflow and (especially) reliability. And whilst you can paraphrase the saying to "nobody ever got sacked for buying Sony, Panasonic or Canon" the question with lesser known makes is can they rival the reputations of such as those three?

Much has been said about release and shipping dates, and the feeling of "better to get it right late, than wrong on time". Well, maybe. But delay too long and the market moves on. If your specification is OK at conception, delay too long and it can be old hat at launch.

It seems that the chip spec is 16mm, and either 2048 x 1152 (in 2K mode) or 1920 x 1080 pixels (in 1080 mode). I won't even mention the 4K word, but let's be clear that after deBayering that WILL NOT give 2K or true 1080 resolution. It'll be more like 1500x850.

So in that respect at least, then forget about it delivering anything like the sharpness full 1080 is capable off, and that cameras like the F3, the Alexa and similar cameras are capable of. OK, it may be said that "resolution isn't everything", but nowadays for "cinema" the discussion has moved on to "1080 or 4K?" - and I mean true 1080 luminance resolution. Somehow, a 1920x1080 Bayer chipset just seems like yesterdays technology - and that seems even more the case when it's limited to 30p. And isn't s35 really being seen as the benchmark for "cinema" video now?

Not that all that means there's anything wrong with it - just that technology has moved on.

That old Bayer shibboleth again. Fact is no 1080p camera of any kind, oversampled or not, can reproduce true 1080p resolution without incurring serious aliasing artifacts and modern high quality debayer algorithms don't lose much at all. If you are after a creamy smooth film like image texture the best 1080p can do is about 850 lines vertical, oddly enough roughly equal to the resolution of the best projected 35mm motion picture prints.

The D16 will hold its own quite well against any camera for HD or 2k finish. Definitely not lacking for resolution or sharpness when properly handled and capable of producing a richer, broader color gamut than most cameras out there.
And yes it is proudly and defiantly a true s16mm/16mm format camera. That is not a handicap, it is a wonderful practical sweet spot format that deserves a lot more attention. The 35mm revolution is passe'. The 16mm digital revolution is just beginnning. :thumbsup:

 

[Jade Lane]

Part of me would really like to see this camera succeed, but I'm just left with so many nagging doubts.

Most important may be ergonomics, as many before me have already commented on. In the professional world, the acid test has to be "if I'm being paid to do a job, and my reputation depends on it, can I trust this equipment?". And whilst quality issues are talked about at length on forums, the question above is as much about usability, workflow and (especially) reliability. And whilst you can paraphrase the saying to "nobody ever got sacked for buying Sony, Panasonic or Canon" the question with lesser known makes is can they rival the reputations of such as those three?

Much has been said about release and shipping dates, and the feeling of "better to get it right late, than wrong on time". Well, maybe. But delay too long and the market moves on. If your specification is OK at conception, delay too long and it can be old hat at launch.

It seems that the chip spec is 16mm, and either 2048 x 1152 (in 2K mode) or 1920 x 1080 pixels (in 1080 mode). I won't even mention the 4K word, but let's be clear that after deBayering that WILL NOT give 2K or true 1080 resolution. It'll be more like 1500x850.

So in that respect at least, then forget about it delivering anything like the sharpness full 1080 is capable off, and that cameras like the F3, the Alexa and similar cameras are capable of. OK, it may be said that "resolution isn't everything", but nowadays for "cinema" the discussion has moved on to "1080 or 4K?" - and I mean true 1080 luminance resolution. Somehow, a 1920x1080 Bayer chipset just seems like yesterdays technology - and that seems even more the case when it's limited to 30p. And isn't s35 really being seen as the benchmark for "cinema" video now?

Not that all that means there's anything wrong with it - just that technology has moved on.

Your lack of knowledgeable information is laughable and regarding ergonomics this camera is designed to film not take pictures.

 

[starcentral]

Funny that 4k, 35mm & 16mm revolution come up.

This month when Sony delivers version 3.0 of its firmware, F55 users will be able to shoot 35mm or 16mm by using the 4k sensor on the F55.

The new firmware will allow a center-crop mode allowing use of super 16mm lenses to deliver HD resolution images, and I suspect other manufacturers will follow suit who plan to unleash 4k over the next 1-2 years.

 

[philiplipetz]

Is the sensor upgradable?

 

[Razz16mm]

Funny that 4k, 35mm & 16mm revolution come up.

This month when Sony delivers version 3.0 of its firmware, F55 users will be able to shoot 35mm or 16mm by using the 4k sensor on the F55.

The new firmware will allow a center-crop mode allowing use of super 16mm lenses to deliver HD resolution images, and I suspect other manufacturers will follow suit who plan to unleash 4k over the next 1-2 years.

Makes a lot of sense. Of course Red has done that since the first Red 1.

 

[philiplipetz]

Makes a lot of sense. Of course Red has done that since the first Red 1.

And a lot of people report that the 2K crop introduces problems not present in the full sensor readout. Never tried it myself, so don't ask. But several respected rental andlens houses have warned me not to go that route.

 

[Razz16mm]

And a lot of people report that the 2K crop introduces problems not present in the full sensor readout. Never tried it myself, so don't ask. But several respected rental andlens houses have warned me not to go that route.

With Reds the 2k is a bit soft due to the aggressive OLPF they use that is optimized for 4k. Sony's 2k raw off their 4k cameras so far doesn't look so good either. Be interesting to see what Panasonic releases next year.

 

[starcentral]

Over on Sony forums we are suspicious as to how the image will be cropped our of the sensor image and if it will improve upon the issues RED has shooting center crop or if it will somehow be different.

With Reds the 2k is a bit soft due to the aggressive OLPF they use that is optimized for 4k. Sony's 2k raw off their 4k cameras so far doesn't look so good either. Be interesting to see what Panasonic releases next year.

Note you are comparing 2k derived from full 4k sensor to cropping a 4k sensor to derive 2k.

 

[Razz16mm]

Over on Sony forums we are suspicious as to how the image will be cropped our of the sensor image and if it will improve upon the issues RED has shooting center crop or if it will somehow be different.



Note you are comparing 2k derived from full 4k sensor to cropping a 4k sensor to derive 2k.

Yeah, that approach didn't work out too well. Raw should interpose as little as possible between you the light and the sensor output. Crop should be much better.

 

[starcentral]

Sony at least developed a swapable OLPF for deriving 2k from the 4k sensor and even without it the quality of some images are really good - but some does end up on the cutting room floor.

This video shot by DVXuser Doug Jensen was not using the new 2k OLPF

https://vimeo.com/77396564

Anyway, I'm anxious to see how the s16 mode plays out for the F55 and future 4k cameras to come!

 

[Kholi]

I think Harddrive's mention of 4K was fair. Even if the camera produces a nice 1080, 4K is pretty important when discussing acquisition (no matter how or why, even if one feels it's unnecessary, it's definitely important). It may not matter to the people buying this, though, as it seems to be a personal camera.

Personally, I'm just preparing for the third stage 4K shift. But, I'm okay if my personal camera's 1080 or 2.5K, which I suspect is what DBolex owners are thinking.

Sensor size isn't really a drawback, S16, MFT, in between and slightly-larger are all interesting.

 

[Razz16mm]

I think Harddrive's mention of 4K was fair. Even if the camera produces a nice 1080, 4K is pretty important when discussing acquisition (no matter how or why, even if one feels it's unnecessary, it's definitely important). It may not matter to the people buying this, though, as it seems to be a personal camera.

Personally, I'm just preparing for the third stage 4K shift. But, I'm okay if my personal camera's 1080 or 2.5K, which I suspect is what DBolex owners are thinking.

Sensor size isn't really a drawback, S16, MFT, in between and slightly-larger are all interesting.

Hey, if i could afford an Epic Dragon for a hobby cam, I would go 4k+ in heartbeat. Any $3500 class camera is going to be a series of compromises.
That is one reason there are so many different choices in the lower price range cameras. Different trade offs in features and performance.