Digital Bolex weeks away

Last March they were saying deliveries are starting in April. Honestly, I don't pay any attention to these guys anymore.
 
snowblindfilm said:
Last March they were saying deliveries are starting in April. Honestly, I don't pay any attention to these guys anymore.
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One thing Joe and Elle have not done throughout the development process is set or promise any specific delivery dates. They have set target schedules to shoot for, but the one commitment they have made is to not release the camera before it is ready and fully tested to quality standards appropriate to the Bolex name. They have continually reported where they are in the development process in a very open manner and shared image and footage samples along the way. The camera is calibrated now, the firmware for release will be locked in a few days. They have all the parts in house for the first 100. Final body parts of acceptable quality are coming in so they can start building and shipping the kickstarter cameras.

Their engineering team has done a thorough first class job with the D16 during development and I'm sure that will carry through to the assembly process as well. I'm looking forward to having one of my own in a few months.

I have yet to see anything new in the under $6k price range that is of compelling interest to me compared to the D16. This is going to be a real jewel of a 16mm raw digital cinema camera.
 
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Razz16mm said:
I have yet to see anything new in the under $6k price range that is of compelling interest to me compared to the D16. This is going to be a real jewel of a 16mm raw digital cinema camera.
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BMDCC and Pocket is way under 6K, and is not vaporware. Looking beyond the hype of DB have created, BMD color science is far superior to anything BD have shown so far. If DB starts producing Alexa quality pictures I will change my opinion, but for now NOTHING shown shot with that camera made me want to buy one. Having to deal with DNG only is kind of pointless for 95% of the projects. Considering we have yet to see the results of transcoding software I would say DB is not even in the same ballpark as BMD CC and PC cameras.
Also 320x240 VF with 2.4" across is a bad design joke.
 
Razz16mm said:
One thing Joe and Elle have not done throughout the development process is set or promise any specific delivery dates. They have set target schedules to shoot for, but the one commitment they have made is to not release the camera before it is ready and fully tested to quality standards appropriate to the Bolex name. They have continually reported where they are in the development process in a very open manner and shared image and footage samples along the way. The camera is calibrated now, the firmware for release will be locked in a few days. They have all the parts in house for the first 100. Final body parts of acceptable quality are coming in so they can start building and shipping the kickstarter cameras.

Their engineering team has done a thorough first class job with the D16 during development and I'm sure that will carry through to the assembly process as well. I'm looking forward to having one of my own in a few months.

I have yet to see anything new in the under $6k price range that is of compelling interest to me compared to the D16. This is going to be a real jewel of a 16mm raw digital cinema camera.
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Digital Bolex are lucky to have someone like yourself helping them out. Are you still on the development panel or whatever it's called for them?
 
snowblindfilm said:
BMDCC and Pocket is way under 6K, and is not vaporware. Looking beyond the hype of DB have created, BMD color science is far superior to anything BD have shown so far. If DB starts producing Alexa quality pictures I will change my opinion, but for now NOTHING shown shot with that camera made me want to buy one. Having to deal with DNG only is kind of pointless for 95% of the projects. Considering we have yet to see the results of transcoding software I would say DB is not even in the same ballpark as BMD CC and PC cameras.
Also 320x240 VF with 2.4" across is a bad design joke.
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BMC cameras have multiple issues related to their cheap prices. I've played with footage from both the BMCC and the pocket and had hands on with both at a trade show last spring. Both shoot decent footage in raw, if one overlooks the aliasing and moire issues. Both continue to have QC and reliability problems. Neither is ergonomically appealing. Both require extensive rigging and accessories to bring them to a useful form factor, so cost much more than their purchase price would suggest. I'm not impressed with the Prores options with either one. I have no use for any compressed video codec as a shooting format for the kind of personal creative projects I'm interested in. Raw is it.

Since it is uncompressed cinema DNG, the D16 footage can be transcoded with Resolve, or AE/Speedgrade/ACR, but I prefer the results I'm getting from more sophisticated stills processors like Capture 1 or Raw Therapee. I really prefer the image quality of the Kodak designed CCD sensor over the BMC's. With a proper OLPF in the D16 there are no issues with moire and aliasing. So far none of the sample footage posted for the D16 has been from a fully calibrated camera, but I have had no problems taking color anywhere I want it. The color calibration chart frames that have been posted recently are very accurate and ISO calibrations referenced to a light meter are also very accurate, more like what one would get with a pro quality raw still camera than the hit or miss profiles of most video cameras.
 
Fluoro said:
Digital Bolex are lucky to have someone like yourself helping them out. Are you still on the development panel or whatever it's called for them?
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Yeah, there are about a half dozen of us that all have past experience with 16mm film as well as various professional profiles from film/video production, post production, engineering that have tried to contribute where we can. We even got a couple of former Kodak sensor engineers in touch with Joe, including the one who developed the Bayer color filters used on the sensors and one who is a calibration expert. They both did consulting trips up to Toronto to help solve some specific issues and speed up the calibration process.

Other than some Macbeth chart samples, I haven't had any images from the latest calibrations to play with. Joe said in the forum they are out shooting tests with the latest firmware including audio this weekend. Maybe see something new next week sometime.

This is a sample frame from the results after the first chart calibration run in early October processed with Capture 1 (some grain added).

10093163785_bd2c7c5389_h.jpg
 
Any camera will have it's set of issues, every camera will require costly amount of extras to make it into a production unit. One issue I can already see with DB is cost of media (fast CF cards are $$$) and the screen. There is no way you can achieve critical focus with 2.4" 320x240 lcd. So anyone buying DB will have to dish out for battery solution, EVF/monitor, fast CF cards. I don't see how your argument about the cost is holding water here.
Playing with the camera and working with it are 2 different things, so far I have not see any superiority of D16 as far as IQ goes. DR is far lower though, in comparison to BMD, which was clearly showing in the footage shot on the beach.
The whole argument is kind of pointless anyway. At the moment I can buy BMD camera, and from what it looks like D16 is at least several months away from being sold in any meaningful quantities. Wish them luck, but to be honest their marketing strategy doesn't work for me.
 
snowblindfilm said:
Any camera will have it's set of issues, every camera will require costly amount of extras to make it into a production unit. One issue I can already see with DB is cost of media (fast CF cards are $$$) and the screen. There is no way you can achieve critical focus with 2.4" 320x240 lcd. So anyone buying DB will have to dish out for battery solution, EVF/monitor, fast CF cards. I don't see how your argument about the cost is holding water here.
Playing with the camera and working with it are 2 different things, so far I have not see any superiority of D16 as far as IQ goes. DR is far lower though, in comparison to BMD, which was clearly showing in the footage shot on the beach.
The whole argument is kind of pointless anyway. At the moment I can buy BMD camera, and from what it looks like D16 is at least several months away from being sold in any meaningful quantities. Wish them luck, but to be honest their marketing strategy doesn't work for me.
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The D16 records to an internal enterprise server grade SSD with full error correction software, in camera formatting and trim management for the drive a it ages. CF cards are used for off loading in the field if you don't have access to a computer and are formatted, error corrected and verified on camera too. Since camera performance is not dependent on the speed of the CF cards, lower cost cards can be used at the expense of longer transfer times. If there is a computer available you can do fully error corrected verified transfers via USB 3 and skip the CF cards altogether. The intent is to protect the integrity of the data throughout the chain so there are no problems with dropped frames or corrupted footage between shooting and post.

There is from my own processing of DNG samples about a 1 stop difference in max DR between the D16 and the BMC sensor when both are properly exposed. It is still on par with or better than most cameras, about like a Red MX gen sensor. It is better than my wife's D40x Nikon DSLR for both DR and sensitivity, roughly equal to a 5DmkII for DR, but doesn't do high ISO low light as well. The D16 gives up a stop in low light sensitivity to the BMC cameras due to using high saturation color filters that lower conversion efficiency but makes up for it with a richer color gamut and potentially more accurate refined reproduction of highly saturated colors, especially yellows and reds.

The internal battery will run the camera for up to 4 hours depending on conditions. It is designed to be used with external battery belts through industry standard 4 pin XLR connections and the internal battery will trickle charge when an external battery is connected. The camera does not need to be encumbered with the rigging and weight of an on camera battery solution.
Most will add an external monitor or EVF to any of these cameras, but the only thing you really have to add to shoot the camera as it comes out of the box is a lens. Most EVF's come with cold shoe mounts, so no cheese plates or cages or rails or other rigging hardware is needed for basic handheld or tripod shooting as one would do with its namesake Bolex film cameras.

BMC on camera audio is poor. They don't provide preamps or phantom power for pro mics. So add a complete double system sound kit with recorder to the cost. The D16 has excellent quality analog preamps, XLR's, phantom power, and records at up to 24 bit 96Khz sample rates with quality at least as good as a Zoom H4N on camera.

It is a much handier simpler better all around camera, especially for a solo shooter.
 
I acknowledge your points, however I think by arguing certain way, you seem to shoot yourself in your own foot. Like Zoom H4N sample- zoom is horrible, noisy recorder, so if the on-board audio is horrible in comparison to many other devices. I will be first to say BMD cameras audio is one of the weakest points of the camera. However a decent field mixer with good pre-amps can fix that.
The other issue- 1F-stop DR is huge, and 12 vs 13 is night and day difference.
I don't have really time to sit and write my opinions about vaporware (d16), as there is no point to it. In the best case scenario D16 is at least several months away for general public (like me), while I can get my hands on BMD cameras today. And when it finally is shipping, everyone will have to deal with the issues on the camera- no perfect camera exist.
 
snowblindfilm said:
I acknowledge your points, however I think by arguing certain way, you seem to shoot yourself in your own foot. Like Zoom H4N sample- zoom is horrible, noisy recorder, so if the on-board audio is horrible in comparison to many other devices. I will be first to say BMD cameras audio is one of the weakest points of the camera. However a decent field mixer with good pre-amps can fix that.
The other issue- 1F-stop DR is huge, and 12 vs 13 is night and day difference.
I don't have really time to sit and write my opinions about vaporware (d16), as there is no point to it. In the best case scenario D16 is at least several months away for general public (like me), while I can get my hands on BMD cameras today. And when it finally is shipping, everyone will have to deal with the issues on the camera- no perfect camera exist.
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If you have not actually processed and graded raw footage from both cameras then you have no experience to base a judgement on. The practical difference in usable DR is pretty small with raw files from either camera.

If I found the BMCC a satisfactory solution I would have one.
 
Surprised by the negativity here.... This is a tiny company who seem to be close to achieving their goal. I think it is fascinating and a true reflection of the social/crowd funding era.
 
Look at the subtly of the color from their CCD sensor. While their color is not totally tuned in yet, and I have some doubts about their choice of color chart to use for tuning, this could be an excellent choice for Indie film makers. The BM cams are not really tuned for solo shooters, especially the audio, but the DB16 has an unifying vision that may free filmakers to use the camera without babysitting, and just create. high hopes, but still no final unprocessed video samples.
 
Razz16mm said:
One thing Joe and Elle have not done throughout the development process is set or promise any specific delivery dates. They have set target schedules to shoot for
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Yea i need to call BS on that, as can be seen from the kickstarter page....

When do the first 100 cameras ship?
August. Exact dates to be announced.
Last updated: Wednesday Mar 14, 10:01pm EDT


you can call a month not a specific date, it's still blown past several times over.

you can call it a target schedule to shoot for, but it's specifically noted as a month in which cameras will ship
 
Sometimes meeting target dates is not about just being smart, diligent, professional , etc.

You have to have clout to make your suppliers move.

Little companies do not have clout.

Big companies would have no better track record than small companies in meeting target dates if they didn't have clout (money, lawyers, etc) to threaten their suppliers with.
 
philiplipetz said:
Look at the subtly of the color from their CCD sensor. While their color is not totally tuned in yet, and I have some doubts about their choice of color chart to use for tuning, this could be an excellent choice for Indie film makers. The BM cams are not really tuned for solo shooters, especially the audio, but the DB16 has an unifying vision that may free filmakers to use the camera without babysitting, and just create. high hopes, but still no final unprocessed video samples.
Click to expand...

The Macbeth chart is the right chart to use for raw sensor calibration as it is designed to produce specific sRGB digital code values for specific color hues as measured by a spectrophotometer in CIE xyz color space.

The Macbeth calibration system is independent of any particular reproduction color space and works for all as a photometric base. 12 bit DNG raw color values are defined in wide gamut CIE xyz color space, which is what the D16 records, not video.

Some have suggested that the DSC labs charts would be better, but they are designed to hit YUV encoded REC709 video targets on a vectorscope. Wrong color space for raw sensor calibration. Right color space for HD video production chain calibration.

So after the camera is calibrated to CIE values, when you shoot a DSC REC709 chart and load that raw file for processing, you adjust gray scale and white balance the raw image (in post not on set) to correct waveform and vectorscope values for the video chart. Now your shot is calibrated for encoding to the more limited REC709 video gamut.

Until the raw image is processed and encoded to some particular YUV or RGB codec there is no color image to see. You can process the raw image data with as shot camera meta data with different raw processors using their default DNG settings and no two of them would look alike even if you did not change the camera metadata. Resolve, AE/Speedgrade/ACR, Capture 1, Raw Therapee, Aperture, RPP, Mistyka, etc. will all produce different default images from the same metadata. What you see on the software image preview screen on your computer as you make adjustments are sRGB display image values, assuming that is the color space your monitor is calibrated for, most are by default.

It is a mistake to think of this or any raw DNG camera as having a particular "unprocessed" look like a video camera that does all of this processing internally to manufacturer programmed looks.
Exercising creative control over the processing stage between the raw input file and the encoded video output file is what shooting raw is about. So if you haven't seen a sample that is to your particular taste yet, just wait, Somebody will eventually come up with one. :cheesy: Or download some of the DNG samples and try processing them your self. You will learn more about the camera with one frame of DNG raw than from a dozen Vimeo or Youtube samples.

This is what the still frame I posted above looks like in sRGB JPEG with Capture 1 settings at their 0 (not default) minimum or center menu settings, linear gamma of 1, and camera metadata.

10620255623_d21c07c79a_b.jpg
 
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