Digital Bolex D16 Lenses

[pulpfiction007]

s16mm is capable of a broad, useful range of creative DOF control. It is nothing like small format video cameras. No it isn't 35mm , but in many shooting situations it is easier and more practical to focus, especially shooting and following action.

That is the real appeal of the D16 for me, it fills a hole in the existing market between small formats and 35mm formats that no one else other than Ikonoskop (standard 16mm format 1080p) and Silicon Imaging have addressed and it is the most affordable practical solution for a raw digital replacement for 16mm/S16mm film cameras. I simply love the format and I like the creative flexibility of uncompressed raw data over the low end codecs most cameras in the D16's price range use.

I totally agree with you there, seems like a good sweet spot to be in and the camera itself is a great idea Just the lenses seem funky for the way a lot of people shoot, but no one HAS to work with those. I think mainly people just want to see the camera and footage, and all these other things just seem like distractions...even if they aren't truly distractions to the team progressing forward. We all just want to get a feel for what kind of pictures this thing is going to deliver, etc. I wish them luck moving forward not only as a new tool in the market... but that along with the BMC, and even the GH3, (possibly the Nikon D5200) we're seeing options are getting better and better at lower and lower prices.

 

[Razz16mm]

I totally agree with you there, seems like a good sweet spot to be in and the camera itself is a great idea Just the lenses seem funky for the way a lot of people shoot, but no one HAS to work with those. I think mainly people just want to see the camera and footage, and all these other things just seem like distractions...even if they aren't truly distractions to the team progressing forward. We all just want to get a feel for what kind of pictures this thing is going to deliver, etc. I wish them luck moving forward not only as a new tool in the market... but that along with the BMC, and even the GH3, (possibly the Nikon D5200) we're seeing options are getting better and better at lower and lower prices.

Yeah we are all Jonesing for some real footy pretty bad. Hopefully within the next couple of weeks. They were aiming for end of Feb. as a goal. They also plan to have at least one working camera and workflow demos with their Debayer/DIT software package at SXSW mid March.

Lets hope they make it.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

T/4? I'm sure this has been said, but wtf. Lenses should get faster, not slower. There are amazing lenses that are 16mm C-mount which are F/2, F/1.4, and etc. Zeiss, Cooke, Schneider... great choices with great ranges and small size.

I have a Zeiss 18-90 F/2 and a Zeiss 10mm F/2... both C-mount. I have a canon 17-102, which crappy build but good range.

Just saying.


Also, how do they plan to make the electronic mount with the turret? Are these two separate configurations. Focusing with a crank is ridiculous. I think we should focus our digital bolex like we did with our past bolex's. Just saying... What the crank should REALLY be for is a creative tool for exposure. Remember how old cameras had to be hand cranked? Imagine setting the camera into a manual FPS mode, setting a shutter angle, and then hand cranking to expose each frame. Crank faster and you get slow motion with faster exposures, crank really slow for some long exposures with motion ability. Crank at the right speed and get a little MOS 24fps regular speed. Just like with film cameras in the early 20th century.

Now that would be cool.

I agree this is a waste of money. Focus on the camera 1st, and then on optics. Seems a little horse before the cart to me. I just want the camera. I have plenty of beautiful vintage glass to choose from.

 

[Razz16mm]

T/4? I'm sure this has been said, but wtf. Lenses should get faster, not slower. There are amazing lenses that are 16mm C-mount which are F/2, F/1.4, and etc. Zeiss, Cooke, Schneider... great choices with great ranges and small size.

I have a Zeiss 18-90 F/2 and a Zeiss 10mm F/2... both C-mount. I have a canon 17-102, which crappy build but good range.

Just saying.


Also, how do they plan to make the electronic mount with the turret? Are these two separate configurations. Focusing with a crank is ridiculous. I think we should focus our digital bolex like we did with our past bolex's. Just saying... What the crank should REALLY be for is a creative tool for exposure. Remember how old cameras had to be hand cranked? Imagine setting the camera into a manual FPS mode, setting a shutter angle, and then hand cranking to expose each frame. Crank faster and you get slow motion with faster exposures, crank really slow for some long exposures with motion ability. Crank at the right speed and get a little MOS 24fps regular speed. Just like with film cameras in the early 20th century.

Now that would be cool.

I agree this is a waste of money. Focus on the camera 1st, and then on optics. Seems a little horse before the cart to me. I just want the camera. I have plenty of beautiful vintage glass to choose from.

The crank is a digital encoder, so it can be programmed to do many things. Hand cranked frame rates are on the list. The vintage 16mm lenses are often very fast, but they typically look much better if you stop them down to somewhere between f/2.8 and f/5.6.

 

[Wesley Byram]

This seemed worth posting: http://nofilmschool.com/2013/02/digital-bolex-kish-optics-fixed-lenses-gh3/

First thing I noticed was how much barrel distortion is in the 10mm, but I guess that's too be expected for such a wide lens. Another note is that it probably won't be as noticeable on the D16 because of the smaller sensor.

Also seems notable that the first footage we are seeing from these D16 lenses was still not shot on a D16.

 

[oneonetwothree]

T/4? I'm sure this has been said, but wtf. Lenses should get faster, not slower. There are amazing lenses that are 16mm C-mount which are F/2, F/1.4, and etc. Zeiss, Cooke, Schneider... great choices with great ranges and small size.

I have a Zeiss 18-90 F/2 and a Zeiss 10mm F/2... both C-mount. I have a canon 17-102, which crappy build but good range.

Just saying.

I agree this is a waste of money. Focus on the camera 1st, and then on optics. Seems a little horse before the cart to me. I just want the camera. I have plenty of beautiful vintage glass to choose from.

Just saying what? Did you read their post?

1) More lenses coming, both faster and slower than F4.
2) You don't have to use DB lenses if you don't want to.
3) The lenses are a different manufacturer than the camera. Both are coming when they're ready.

Also, what about those of us who don't own a bunch of Zeiss glass, or "plenty of beautiful vintage glass to choose from"? But thanks for the laundry list of your awesome goodies, I guess. You gonna let me use them when I need to shoot, or is it cool if I just go ahead and buy these $300 lenses for myself?

What is with everyone's obsession with F2.8-and-faster glass? Have you guys never shot a documentary before?

 

[Will Turner]

For $300 a lens you could get some beautiful legacy glass that is not only sharp at F4 but also has the ability to open up wide if you need the speed.

Another alternative if you don't mind an F4 lens is to get a 17-40L from canon. The added bonus is you can use your lens on cameras with bigger sensors.

You'd have a hard time selling niche c-mount lenses for a DB if you wanted to change up however many years down the line.

 

[Gary Huff]

You'd have a hard time selling niche c-mount lenses for a DB if you wanted to change up however many years down the line.

It's really a dumb idea no matter how you slice it.

 

[joe1946]

For $300 a lens you could get some beautiful legacy glass that is not only sharp at F4 but also has the ability to open up wide if you need the speed.

Another alternative if you don't mind an F4 lens is to get a 17-40L from canon. The added bonus is you can use your lens on cameras with bigger sensors.

You'd have a hard time selling niche c-mount lenses for a DB if you wanted to change up however many years down the line.

A fast wide angle like the 24mm F1.4 on my full frame VG900 would have a telephoto FOV on a super 16 sensor.

 

[Razz16mm]

A fast wide angle like the 24mm F1.4 on my full frame VG900 would have a telephoto FOV on a super 16 sensor.

View attachment 67803

Yup, it's a 16mm format camera. 35mm lenses are not an ideal solution. They do not have optimum MTF/resolution characteristics for the smaller format.

Vintage 16mm glass can be nice, I have a broad collection myself. But I doubt any of the lenses I have will approach the IQ of the Kish D16 lenses. Although many of them open up to maximum apertures in the 1.4-1.8 range, they work best stopped down to at least f/2.8 if you want sharp images. On the wide end many vintage film camera lenses will show shading in the corners even when coverage is good due to not being optically designed for digital sensors.

 

[NorBro]

From Joe:

"We are still hoping to deliver cameras this quarter. We are really really close. I am doing all I can to understand time lines and let people know as much as possible, but a solid date is just not available right now. We have all of the electronics assembled and working in unison, but there is an issue with the image path in the FPGA, we are diligently working through it, every day there are small but meaningful victories. Sometime soon we will get footage. We are doing our best."

The one thing I've learned from this experience is I now understand why Canon, Panasonic and Sony never release any real world information on a new release UNTIL IT'S READY - and really, really done ready - TO BE RELEASED.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Just saying what? Did you read their post?

1) More lenses coming, both faster and slower than F4.
2) You don't have to use DB lenses if you don't want to.
3) The lenses are a different manufacturer than the camera. Both are coming when they're ready.

Also, what about those of us who don't own a bunch of Zeiss glass, or "plenty of beautiful vintage glass to choose from"? But thanks for the laundry list of your awesome goodies, I guess. You gonna let me use them when I need to shoot, or is it cool if I just go ahead and buy these $300 lenses for myself?

What is with everyone's obsession with F2.8-and-faster glass? Have you guys never shot a documentary before?

Dude, $300/lens?! I'm not an expert in lens manufacturing, (although I know more than most), but it seems to me $300 is not the 'cheap' price a lens like this should fetch. In fact, those awesome goodies I listed are probably in the same price range for the most part. That 10mm Zeiss lens I have? About $200-$300 on ebay. It is a Zeiss Tevidon 10mm F/2 and you can actually stop down and focus the thing. Imagine that. And it's about the same size too.

That zoom? I believe it was around $800/900.

Anyway, go look it up, but there are PLENTY of wonderful and fast C-mount lenses for $200-$500 range that will allow for focus and iris control. If I'm running and gunning, I'd like to change my exposure quickly, even if just a stop or half stop to get it right.

If these lenses were like $60-$100, I'd see the point and attraction in the name of economy, but for $300, I could do some real bargain hunting online or at local shops and very likely come back with lenses that are way more functional, practical and universal.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

I'm really looking forward to the Digital Bolex. In fact I might pick one up. (I originally had reserved one of the very first ones, but let it go thinking it would be delayed, which I was right).

Call me crazy, but as someone who owns quite the collection of photography and cinema lenses and as a professional cinematographer and camera assistant, I fail to see these as a worthwhile investment from all angles.

Purchase what you will.

 

[skibovision]

s.

Purchase what you will.

I agree that in the end people can make the decision they want but to me the real surprise isn't that people want them, its that bolex is making them part of the initial release.

I think a lot of people heard of this camera and wanted it. Not a package with a lens that you work with in a whole new way, but just a camera. If I had put money down (which I almost did but bought a ton of glass instead) I would be pissed to find out they are putting resources into anything but getting the camera out the door. They would be better off telling people about the lenses on the same day they have a ship date and a working prototype. Then post some footage of your lenses and camera working together and all will be well.

 

[Will Turner]

Sorry guys I forgot how sever the crop factor is; when it comes to wide angles every mm counts.

I agree that a 35mm zoom lens isn't an ideal solution, but then neither is a 3-set of F4 fixed focus primes. The obvious choice is legacy glass off ebay, but thats obvious.

 

[Razz16mm]

Sorry guys I forgot how sever the crop factor is; when it comes to wide angles every mm counts.

I agree that a 35mm zoom lens isn't an ideal solution, but then neither is a 3-set of F4 fixed focus primes. The obvious choice is legacy glass off ebay, but thats obvious.

There are limited quantities of high quality legacy lenses out there. Wide angle vintage film lenses will show shading in the corners on digital sensors even when they do cover the image circle since they are not back telecentric designs.

The roadmap for the D16 lenses is matched sets at f/2, f/4, and f/8 with each set being optimized for best IQ at its aperture with MTF matched to the sensor. Add the electronic focusing mount and they may turn out to be a more practical low cost solution than it seems at first glance. All three sets and the mount won't cost as much as one new Arri S16 ultra-prime.

Right now your choices in new prime lenses are low cost industrial lenses with less than ideal optical and mechanical design, no real wide angles available there either, very expensive S16mm glass in the $3k-5k range per lens, or something like the Zeiss CP2's or lesser quality 35mm or m4/3 still camera lenses. A set of Optar Illuminas will set you back about $15k new or $8-10k used. They are about the cheapest high quality new option specifically for the S16 format.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

There are limited quantities of high quality legacy lenses out there. Wide angle vintage film lenses will show shading in the corners on digital sensors even when they do cover the image circle since they are not back telecentric designs.

The roadmap for the D16 lenses is matched sets at f/2, f/4, and f/8 with each set being optimized for best IQ at its aperture with MTF matched to the sensor. Add the electronic focusing mount and they may turn out to be a more practical low cost solution than it seems at first glance. All three sets and the mount won't cost as much as one new Arri S16 ultra-prime.

Right now your choices in new prime lenses are low cost industrial lenses with less than ideal optical and mechanical design, no real wide angles available there either, very expensive S16mm glass in the $3k-5k range per lens, or something like the Zeiss CP2's or lesser quality 35mm or m4/3 still camera lenses. A set of Optar Illuminas will set you back about $15k new or $8-10k used. They are about the cheapest high quality new option specifically for the S16 format.

Let's not compare apples to oranges. The vintage C-mount lenses are at least comparable to the ones being made by Kish. Comparing the larger 16mm cinema lenses are another ballpark. So although those are great lenses (Zeiss made a superspeed 16mm set, ultraspeed 16mm set, Cooke made the S4's in a 16mm set, etc) Those are not the lenses I am talking about nor are they the options people are going to be weighing these new Kish lenses against.

 

[Razz16mm]

Let's not compare apples to oranges. The vintage C-mount lenses are at least comparable to the ones being made by Kish. Comparing the larger 16mm cinema lenses are another ballpark. So although those are great lenses (Zeiss made a superspeed 16mm set, ultraspeed 16mm set, Cooke made the S4's in a 16mm set, etc) Those are not the lenses I am talking about nor are they the options people are going to be weighing these new Kish lenses against.

In terms of cost no. But the point of the Kish lenses is to provide current state of the art optical quality comparable to the Cookes, Illuminas, Arri/Zeiss at a small fraction of the price. The trade off is the fixed aperture/fixed focus compromise. So pay your money and take your choice. At least they will offer an optically superior low cost option to the existing market.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

In terms of cost no. But the point of the Kish lenses is to provide current state of the art optical quality comparable to the Cookes, Illuminas, Arri/Zeiss at a small fraction of the price. The trade off is the fixed aperture/fixed focus compromise. So pay your money and take your choice. At least they will offer an optically superior low cost option to the existing market.

I get what you are saying but I disagree for the most part. Yes there are very excellent and expensive C-mount glass and very crappy and cheap c-mount glass, but there is a whole world of c-mount lenses that fall in the middle, and I think those will surprise you. They also work like real lenses too.

In my opinion, to sacrifice adjustable focus and iris for the sake of gaining just a little image quality is insanity.

I think if someone is super worried about absolute quality of image, the D16 isn't for them in the first place. I'm not saying I think it will be a bad camera... not at all. What I am saying, is that considering there are plenty of high quality professional alternatives on the market already, I've always thought of the D16's strength as being a fun camera. Something that can make a cool image, be small and free. Like the bolex was for me. I always used a Bolex when having fun or expirementing. When shooting something serious on 16mm, I'd got Arri BL, or something. The Bolex was the art camera. The camera of freedom... and there is nothing free or liberating about a lens that can't change exposure, let alone focus.

The spirit of the D16 is what I was always attracted to and perhaps my entire excitement over putting very cool and good quality vintage C-mount glass on it. That's how I view the camera, but then again, I'm in the minority here at DVXuser in what I use on a daily basis.

 

[Razz16mm]

I get what you are saying but I disagree for the most part. Yes there are very excellent and expensive C-mount glass and very crappy and cheap c-mount glass, but there is a whole world of c-mount lenses that fall in the middle, and I think those will surprise you. They also work like real lenses too.

In my opinion, to sacrifice adjustable focus and iris for the sake of gaining just a little image quality is insanity.

I think if someone is super worried about absolute quality of image, the D16 isn't for them in the first place. I'm not saying I think it will be a bad camera... not at all. What I am saying, is that considering there are plenty of high quality professional alternatives on the market already, I've always thought of the D16's strength as being a fun camera. Something that can make a cool image, be small and free. Like the bolex was for me. I always used a Bolex when having fun or expirementing. When shooting something serious on 16mm, I'd got Arri BL, or something. The Bolex was the art camera. The camera of freedom... and there is nothing free or liberating about a lens that can't change exposure, let alone focus.

The spirit of the D16 is what I was always attracted to and perhaps my entire excitement over putting very cool and good quality vintage C-mount glass on it. That's how I view the camera, but then again, I'm in the minority here at DVXuser in what I use on a daily basis.

I love this statement and agree with you 100% about the nature of the D16. I have a cabinet full of vintage C-mount and Arri B mount glass I'm looking forward to playing with on the D16, from 3.5mm fisheye to 240mm tele.

One of the extensive discussions we had with Joe was about back focus adjustments. To preserve the integrity of the camera Joe did not want to make the manual back focus adjustment a user accessible feature. In developing the Kish lenses what Joe came up with is an accessory motorized C-mount that will adjust back focus via the crank. This will provide full range focus adjustment for the Kish lenses. It will also open up a wider selection of high optical quality machine vision lenses that don't necessarily conform to C-mount film camera back focus standards or vintage lenses that may be a little off as well as provide a built in programmable follow focus function via the crank.