Did the F3 cause Red to rethink the Scarlet S35?

[Buck Forester]

Also, the F3 isn't $23,000, its $13,300 if you use the glass you used on your 35mm adapter. Many pros and semi pros have a Nano or KiPro, but if they don't the regular codec is very good, just like the EX1.

My bad if I got the $$ wrong, for some reason I was thinking I read where the price was like $18,000 for camera and $23,000 with three lenses as a kit, but that may have been mfg list price or a different camera. I also didn't realize the F3 really shot 3.5k as mentioned but downsized to 1080p. During these kinds of technical discussions I should just keep reading and eating buttered popcorn because I'm not a techno specs guy. It does seem an EX1 and this new F3 would make a good team with a NanoFlash. I was also thinking new digital cinemas were going 4k but it sounds like the vast majority are 2k. Thanks for the info, I'm still malleable.

 

[Duke M.]

I couldn't think of a better combination than an F3, EX1 and a Nano. (The $18,900 is the F3 with three PL prime lenses.)

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

This is what every successful electronic company has been doing and it is call a line of product. I am not saying they should go as low as a 4.4.2 codec, but they could do a 2k or even 3k redcode version that would be enough to differentiate there product from the Sony and Panasonic of this world. Have a product that competes at different price point with the competition, as the example before. Put this camera (functional) at $ 5000 to $ 7000 and you kick you sell in the thousand every month. Do you think nikon makes more money on it full frame $ 7000 D3x or on its apc line of product. I am a professional photographer, so my example are more related to this market which is much more mature than the digital video one. We have the Nikon D7000 selling for a little more than $1000 which has a 16 mega pixel 14 stop sensor which is the best in its class (factoring Nikon lens etc) and selling bucket loads.

When I see what Sony is doing I see why these Japanese camera company dominate this market. They are pushing Red up and up market, where it is smaller and smaller while they capture the mainstream prosummer market, leverage there r&d on many product line and take a large part of what red was the pioneer. Red and the Dslr have carved a new market but it is going to be them that are going to profit from it. When they will have sold a lot of f3 in 1 to 2 years they will be selling them for $ 10000. The nxcam can be even more drastic, in two years it could be less than $4000 and make it a logical migration from the dslr user to upgrade.

Just an observation, has anyone seen a red camera decrease in price!!! To conclude any company can have any set of ideals, but if it is too costly and does not sell enough, or too late etc. and does not make enough money it will fail.

I like a lot of your post. However, I don't think Jim is going to let Sony just "walk away" with the prosumer market. True, Jim did say RED would be ALL PROFESSIONAL from here forward, but I don't know exactly what that means. Also, Sony has tipped it's hand with the F3, they are committed now. Jim still has the EPIC-S and EPIC Fixed lens in his pocket, and he has NOT committed to their final design. This means he could very well change the specs and pricing to knock hard on the F3 if he wants too.

Remember the Fixed lens Epic was around $5,000.00 He could make a number of MAJOR changes to that camera and still come in well below $13,000.00

I also think people are still not understanding the INCREDIBLE potential of HDRx. A 15 stop camera is going to really kick some ass. Also somone on here commented that a lot of Broadcast / Eng people would prefer a 2/3" camera, and it looks like that market segment is not feeling the love right now. We'll have to see how it all shakes out. The one thing that the F3 has that really intrigues me is that rocker switch.. That was smart.

It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

Jay

 

[Duke M.]

I just don't think so Jay. Jim's marketing has been too much of a loose Canon effect. He sheds devotees with each major change.

However, I don't think Jim is going to let Sony just "walk away" with the prosumer market. True, Jim did say RED would be ALL PROFESSIONAL from here forward, but I don't know exactly what that means.

He specifically said he was going for features over price or time delays. That pretty much says all we need to know.

Also, Sony has tipped it's hand with the F3, they are committed now.

Yes, but in typical corporate fashion it will be a well thought out line of cameras, each competing in their own little nitch, but sharing certain technology. After F3 and NXCam will come a higher end F3 type extremely low noise with 4.4.4 and a high bit rate already built in, etc.

Jim still has the EPIC-S and EPIC Fixed lens in his pocket, and he has NOT committed to their final design. This means he could very well change the specs and pricing to knock hard on the F3 if he wants too.

That would mean another delay. Too many delays and Red products become an also ran instead of a leader.

Remember the Fixed lens Scarlet was around $5,000.00 He could make a number of MAJOR changes to that camera and still come in well below $13,000.00

I also think people are still not understanding the INCREDIBLE potential of HDRx. A 15 stop camera is going to really kick some ass.

In certain situations it will save a shot. In others it will be a pain. If you were shooting Apocalypse Now, and you wanted those dramatic side lit shots with half the face in black, its going to suck when the camera keeps pulling all the details out of the shadows.

Also someone on here commented that a lot of Broadcast / Eng people would prefer a 2/3" camera, and it looks like that market segment is not feeling the love right now.

I seriously doubt that ENG people will get a Scarlet. They want instant turn around time. Two hours of processing to make it look pretty will cost them a scoop and money. I don't see any Red product commonly being used for ENG.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I just don't think so Jay. Jim's marketing has been too much of a loose Canon effect. He sheds devotees with each major change.



He specifically said he was going for features over price or time delays. That pretty much says all we need to know.



Yes, but in typical corporate fashion it will be a well thought out line of cameras, each competing in their own little nitch, but sharing certain technology. After F3 and NXCam will come a higher end F3 type extremely low noise with 4.4.4 and a high bit rate already built in, etc.



That would mean another delay. Too many delays and Red products become an also ran instead of a leader.

Remember the Fixed lens Epic was around $5,000.00 He could make a number of MAJOR changes to that camera and still come in well below $13,000.00



In certain situations it will save a shot. In others it will be a pain. If you were shooting Apocalypse Now, and you wanted those dramatic side lit shots with half the face in black, its going to suck when the camera keeps pulling all the details out of the shadows.



I seriously doubt that ENG people will get a Scarlet. They want instant turn around time. Two hours of processing to make it look pretty will cost them a scoop and money. I don't see any Red product commonly being used for ENG.

Hey Duke,

For the most part all of the EPIC series cameras are the SAME cameras with minor changes made to each. Epic is on track and the other cameras are still being finalized. Please see Jim's post "Packages will most likely change".

You seriously doubt ENG people will get a Scarlet? Well I am an ENG "people" and I am getting one.. So I know you are at least a little bit wrong!

If I were shooting Apocalypse Now I'd most likely light for contrast, keeping some detail in shadows, and then pushinig down the blacks in post. Which according to an old AC is exactly what they did. Detail is always a good thing, choices are a good thing.. Now if you are worried cause HDRx may cause people to light less when they shouldn't.. Then we would be in agreement.

Bottom line, neither one of us knows for sure.. But I think we will in 4 months!

Jay

 

[Jay Birch]

Remember the Fixed lens Epic was around $5,000.00 He could make a number of MAJOR changes to that camera and still come in well below $13,000.00
Jay

Well, unless he changed the "fixed" to be s35 and interchangeable... it is hardly going to interest people looking at the F3, below $13k or not.

Now, if they bring in the so called Epic Light at around $15k, ready to shoot (minus lens).... then alot of the potential F3 customers will be there. I think kitting out the Epic Light to match the F3 will add up to over $20k though (probably true, even if the brain is still $8k)... We will have to kick back and see.

What is certain though is that the F3 will be launch in the 1st quarter of next year and this is why I am very interested.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

The big point for me on the F3 is the Rocker Switch.. That's major! Just hope they don't hit me for $10,000 for the lens.

Jay

 

[Duke M.]

Now, if they bring in the so called Epic Light at around $15k, ready to shoot (minus lens).... then alot of the potential F3 customers will be there.

Now that you said this there will probably be an announcement of an announcement by Red of a low price on the Epic Lite, trying to get potential F3 customers to not buy while waiting for the Epic Lite.

Of course that low price is subject to change, and would then change. Then they'll say (again), we always said it was subject to change.

My expectation is the Epic Lite will be a replacement for the original Red One, so $17,500 for the brain and more like $34k fully outfitted (which is more in line with the real costs on the original Red One. Of course some people will shoot with bare bones and existing lenses.) You don't get the LCD, remote, etc with a Red brain that you do with the F3.

 

[Razz16mm]

Epic-S, Epic-X, Epic-M and Scarlet 2/3" fixed have been locked for production according to Jim's announcements. Production components have been ordered in quantity. All that remains is setting up the production lines and building the cameras. We should wait and see where prices fall. I expect a fully equipped functional Epic light will fall in a competitive range with the F3.

Personally I'm looking forward to the 2/3" interchangeable model that will follow these, though I may get a fixed too. For the kind of stuff I like to shoot it is a better format choice.

 

[Duke M.]

Of course its all speculation because its uncertain and might not be done that way. I'd say a lot of what Jim Jannard has said is speculation about what he might do in the future too. They are still testing the Epic at this point so only time will tell.

 

[mjmcneese]

Epic-S, Epic-X, Epic-M and Scarlet 2/3" fixed have been locked for production according to Jim's announcements. Production components have been ordered in quantity. All that remains is setting up the production lines and building the cameras. We should wait and see where prices fall. I expect a fully equipped functional Epic light will fall in a competitive range with the F3.

Personally I'm looking forward to the 2/3" interchangeable model that will follow these, though I may get a fixed too. For the kind of stuff I like to shoot it is a better format choice.

I know that Jim has claimed that they're ready for production...and perhaps, they are!

However, I would think if they have a manufacture-ready product, we should be seeing an influx of footage from these cameras! Now! All we've seen are a few grabs...or maybe even still shots. RED needs to do what Sony is doing, and get the cameras out into some projects...now. That is, if there are cameras ready to be manufactured.

 

[Duke M.]

I know that Jim has claimed that they're ready for production...and perhaps, they are!

However, I would think if they have a manufacture-ready product, we should be seeing an influx of footage from these cameras! Now! All we've seen are a few grabs...or maybe even still shots. RED needs to do what Sony is doing, and get the cameras out into some projects...now. That is, if there are cameras ready to be manufactured.

Red is preparing cameras to ship to New Zealand and Australia for The Hobbit. However, they are not done, pre-production, still-in-development versions of the Epic. The other cameras will use lots of the same parts, but they still require development cycles.