Did the F3 cause Red to rethink the Scarlet S35?
- Thread starter Duke M.
- Start date
Red has never built or proposed any kind of native 1080p video format camera, nor is it likely they will do so. Their whole reason for existence is to push the technology well beyond HD video acquisition, even beyond the capabilities of film.
I really don't get people who wish Red would make just another HD video camera, as long as they make it cheap and now. The majors are stepping up nicely with those solutions so why should Red follow the pack?
Why should they now go backwards and produce something less than what they have already developed the hardware and software to support? Why for example would it be in Red's interest to build any camera without HDRx now that they have developed that technology? It is so refreshing to have one company at last that puts image quality and camera performance ahead of other market considerations. Let prices fall where they must to support the manufacturing and development costs. Scarlets (2/3") and Epics (S35) of whatever variety will still offer exceptional performance and value for the price.
I really don't get people who wish Red would make just another HD video camera, as long as they make it cheap and now. The majors are stepping up nicely with those solutions so why should Red follow the pack?
Why should they now go backwards and produce something less than what they have already developed the hardware and software to support? Why for example would it be in Red's interest to build any camera without HDRx now that they have developed that technology? It is so refreshing to have one company at last that puts image quality and camera performance ahead of other market considerations. Let prices fall where they must to support the manufacturing and development costs. Scarlets (2/3") and Epics (S35) of whatever variety will still offer exceptional performance and value for the price.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
And, like I said a year ago, I think it'll be Panasonic that does it. While people wait for Canon or Nikon to do something or other, Panasonic's already delivering PL samples of the AF100. By the time Canon decides to get around to making something that competes with the AF100, Panasonic will have the AF200 with raw recording already released. And Nikon will still be making stills cameras. Nikon hasn't made a dedicated video camera since... well, did they ever? They made the R8 and R10 Super8 cameras, but I don't recall them ever entering the videotape era.
I agree BUT what has hurt RED's reputation most is the painful time delay's and the monthly changing marketing strategy. We all know they can make a great camera. There is no doubt about that, but their delays are hurting their reputation. No one trusts their deadlines not even the RED fan boys! That is not good because now people will not wait for the Scarlet but instead will go for the F3 or AF100 because people KNOW when they will come out. There is no guessing or praying required.
RED would serves its self well by shutting up more, hiring a new marketing director and making their website be their best source for information instead of a forum where you have to hunt for information.
Simon
samsara
Well-known member
AF200 with raw recording would be nice. But what codec would they use?
I do think the Sony F3 will have some influence on the AF200. For example, Panasonic now needs to seriously think about zoom lenses and providing a zoom rocker on camera. We always "knew" that the AF200 would record to AVC intra, but now they have to think about 10-bit 4:4:4 output or, as Barry mentioned, raw output. And since there is a competing "low cost" S35 camera on the market, picture quality now becomes more important. And the F3 certainly puts schedule and pricing pressures on the AF200. I can't wait to see what they come up with.
G
G.P.
Guest
But they wouldn't be going backwards by putting out a 2k camera with RAW for that price range. AND they don't wanna go backwards yet they'll take so long to develop a camera, that it ends up being and old market already (EX: DSLR body for EPIC, 2/3'' sensor scarlet) so you're saying they wanna stay ahead of the market, yet they take so long to make something it ends up just being canned anyway...
I think they should higher a new marketing team, its hurting them. The fanboys are the only ones happy about RED now, and I see even them getting annoyed. We all know the saying "buy the best camera now and not worry about whats coming" but I think thats a dead saying. Unfortunately I see more and more clients being very picky about what camera is used on their production. They specifically ask for RED, or Canon 7D, or fill in the blank... The clients are seeing footage from cameras and saying thats what they want. And as soon as that market gets old, they want something else.
I saw people quickly go from wanting to shoot everything on RED to jumping to DSLR's, and now they will be jumping to the AF100 and F3 cameras... The market is no longer something you can wait for. I heard from a RED owner he started losing gigs just because he didn't upgrade to the MX sensor, and the client wanted someone with the MX sensor... Regardless if that client even knew what that meant, people are hearing things and ending up wanting that specific model and not budging outside of it.
We are now in a market where if you dont own the newest and best, you just dont get hired. Its not like the old HD days that an F900 or Varicam could keep you in business for 6 years. Now its almost year to year. REDs whole openness of their strategies are biting themselves in the ass. They started the war on cheaper cameras with better quality when they put out the One camera at $17,500 while the next best thing was $150,000.... Now they are seeing and feeling the repercussions of such an industry change.
If they really wanted to do things right, they need to stop announcements before something is ACTUALLY made or even possible. They can listen to feedback just like any other company, but they dont need to keep putting out these.... well ... Fake products.
i love what RED has done with the RED One, but since then I've hated what they've done to this market and the clients viewpoints on other cameras. Close the doors, and do a rebranding of the company. Put out some cameras without teasing the world, only to then tell the world its not going to be made anymore. To be honest, they aren't actually thinking forward anymore if you really look at it. The only forward thinking they did, was the RED One... now they are just making another RED One that you can play with like Legos and has an extra amount of dynamic range. Thats doing nothing more than building on the original red. If they really want to be a company thats ahead of the game as everyone keeps saying, they would be slamming head first into a 3D system that isn't the size of a fridge and requires syncing of everything. THATS where the market needs its solution. Not in a camera that just has more fps an extra k resolution and some ridiculous dynamic range that causes frame issues.
So for anyone who keeps telling me that red is just staying ahead of the market, where the proof in that? I don't see any. I see them falling back down to earth now and realizing the mistakes they made. Fire the people who started the whole teasing craziness and get that company locked up and building the BEST 3D systems and the best solutions for viewing them.
Even if I had all the money in the world, I can honestly say without even thinking twice, I would NEVER buy an Epic system... Why? why would I spend 60k plus on something that doesn't really do much more than what they have now in the RED One MX? Why spend so much on a camera that doesn't have an accepted workflow in the REAL film industry like Sony and Arri has? The reason why the market is still in actual FILM not digital is because its an accepted workflow that keeps prices down considering ALL the major companies own these FILM setups for the actual industry. Then you have HDCAM SR decks that are 70,000 to pay off each, and they have stacks of them, they have dedicated workflows for all of the professional gear thats already in place for years. Turning a film set from FILM to RED would mean getting rid of ALL of those people who have jobs operating that equipment.
They are saving peoples jobs, the real film industry is run by unions. Everyone is part of the unions. Its their job to make sure jobs dont get pushed out because of technology. They need to slow the process down so that the people who are in jobs that only can happen when FILM isn't being used any more can learn a new job at a professional level to where digital is being used. Its not because they don't see the quality, its because the unions are protecting everyone. And thats a good thing. If I was fearing for losing my job but my union tried their hardest to slow down the new toys coming in, so I can learn another job that either my union will cover me under or a new union could, I'd be so happy. The FILM industry employs tens of thousands of people in the USA alone. If they all went to a RED system, a ton of people would be out of a job and living on the streets.
My rambling on is simply saying RED is not ahead as they once were. They are not the standard either. Sony is and always will be and Arri's new Alexa just put them in second place, taking over a TON of the tv productions.
RED didn't have to re-think, they just never thought in the first place things would move so fast. It took them YEARS to make RED One, why does anyone think it was only going to take them a year to have the scarlet out?
I say kick out those guys and start building something for the film industry that will help it and make more jobs, and thats 3D. 3D sets take a lot more crew to handle things because of the complexity of every shot having to be perfect for the 3D image to work properly. That will keep peoples jobs going and finally push us into a 3D world from 2D and in a few years we won't be saying "Film is dead" we'll be saying "2D is dead"
I don't know why I talk so much...
LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
Long live Arri!
Barry_Green
Moderator
They've already got it; they have a JPEG2000 codec that they make for their cinema D5HD recorders. RedCode Raw is (AFAIK) an implementation of JPEG2000, so... same basic thing.
S. Matthews
Well-known member
Tell that to Graeme, and that he didn't have to do all the work he did over the years and continues to do because it's just a basic thing.
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
There's more to REDCODE than just the wavelets. There's a whole suite of other bits and pieces of the puzzle going on that make it all work together as a system. You cannot just take an off the shelf codec of any type and expect it to work right out of the bag, doubly so for a high resolution RAW camera. If that could have been done, we'd have done it because it's a hell of a lot cheaper and easier (and I'd have less grey hairs)!
Graeme
Graeme
Barry_Green
Moderator
I never said it was a 'basic thing' and I'm not all that happy that you've tried to imply I did.
If you want it reworded, I should have said that Panasonic's efforts and Red's efforts amount to "basically the same thing" -- taking the foundation of JPEG2000 and adapting it to the needs of digital cinema recording.
I think Graeme well knows that as an ex-programmer, I'm not discounting his efforts at all. Nor would I discount the efforts of the Panasonic engineers who adapted JPEG2000 to work with their D5-HD recorder. What I'm saying (or, well, what I said) was that both companies have a raw codec that's based on JPEG2000. So that is, indeed, the "same basic thing". I never said it was "a basic thing".
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
How do you get from D5 to RAW codec?
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't think it goes from D5. It's an add-in board for their D5HD systems that converts them to recording JPEG2000 instead.
Barry_Green
Moderator
JPEG2000 itself isn't raw. But if you use it to compress a raw image, then you have ... compressed raw. Raw, in the rawest sense, is an uncompressed feed off the sensor. That can be compressed, and becomes something called "compressed RAW". At that point it hasn't been demosaic'd or processed in any way, it's still in its raw straight-off-the-sensor form, but it's been compressed for recording on lower-bandwidth media.
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
Sure, but compressing raw isn't as simple as feeding raw data directly into a codec. You get sub-optimal results if you do. You need to do things to the codec so that it understands raw better!
Graeme
Graeme
Barry_Green
Moderator
Of course, yes... sorry for the oversimplification; we live in a world where folks think that adding a 50mbps AVC codec to an existing product is "adding a line of code". Of course raw being ... well, RAW, the codec would need to be optimized to encode it efficiently, and I'm not understating that and I hope nobody thinks I am. Your accomplishments are well known and you know I'm one of your biggest fans. I'm just saying that it's not like the Panasonic guys are exactly airheads; the guys who made HDD5 and AVC-Intra clearly have their own set of chops and coud probably figure out a pretty good-looking codec too, is all.
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
The only point I'm making is that if you have existing codec technology it's not a drop-in to get it to deal with raw, and that only gets more so as you go to the higher resolutions. When you add high fps too, the engineers start screaming at you 