Did the F3 cause Red to rethink the Scarlet S35?

Duke M.

Duke M.

Veteran
"The Scarlet S35 is now called EPIC Light. The features have changed as has the price. I'll update in the next two weeks.

Jim"

Are they going to up the price and increase the features?

I'm getting the impression that the Red Camera company isn't going to be catering to the low end market at all.
 
Interesting.

Changing the name won't really make a difference - just confuse a bunch of people.

Changing the price could be very encouraging tho.
 
Duke M. said:
Are they going to up the price and increase the features?
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Unquestionably. Absolutely. The Epic brand is going to be reinforced by whatever new announcement comes out... he's not going to incorporate the Scarlet S35 design to water down the Epic brand. This is about clarification and identity, just like their prior "man up" statement.

I'm getting the impression that the Red Camera company isn't going to be catering to the low end market at all.
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They absolutely are not. They made that clear already -- with the "man up" statement. They have no interest in anything but professionals (defined by me as, those who make their living with the equipment, and who depend on it for their livelihood... which inherently rules out the casual/hobbyist types). They intend to make their products reasonably priced, but they are certainly not going to reach down outside of the professional arena.

I'm not using the term "professional" as a pejorative against anyone. Certainly there are amateurs and hobbyists who can produce work on par with or superior to many "professionals". But a professional is one who is engaged in a profession, hence it is their full time job and they depend on it for their livelihood. That is the person Red has said they are catering to.

Did the F3 cause them to rethink the Scarlet S35? Possibly. I'll tell you, the F3, while getting somewhat of a mixed reception, seems to me to be the most interesting product Sony has released since the original PD150. So yeah, I would think Red has had to rethink some things. Although, frankly, I think the stage of releasing Epic from development has been what's caused Red to rethink things, because now finally they can. The all-encompassing development cycle has finally eased up, so they've likely freed themselves to think of the next task, and I bet Scarlet/Scarlet S35/Epic Light has been a major topic of discussion. And I think they got it right. Scarlet S35 has always seemed like a mistake to me, in terms of "it's going to be too good for too cheap", which means that it would turn a potential $28,000 customer into a $10,000 customer, and that didn't seem like it was in their best interest. Now, reclassifying it under the Epic brand, they've drawn a clear line of distinction between the 2/3" products and the cinema-sized products. And yes, I fully expect that Scarlet S35 is going to improve and grow up, it will have a revised feature set to at least match everything the Sony offers, and its price will go northward.
 
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I never believed that Red was going to release a camera at the initial price point announced for the Scarlet, and had serious doubts about the subsequently announced interations of the Scarlet, and now it appears to be official. I agree with Barry that this latest announcement indicates that the whole concept of the Scarlet is essentially abandoned, but again this is no surprise. I try not to spend to much time on Red's annoying marketing hype until they actually have shipping products.
 
What I think really may be happening is that although the scarlet fixed is somewhat modular its only about 80% the same as the Epic. If they wait to get the Epic done, then the Scarlet fixed, then the Scarlet 2/3" as they originally announced the market may be pretty saturated by m4/3 to S35 sized sensors.

The other thing is I don't think the Epic is as far along as people assume from that pronouncement. Jim lurks around the boards and probably feels pressured by all these developments.

However, if they make the S35 closer to the Epic it will make a much shorter development cycle by simply not crippling an Epic as much. At the same time they can justify a higher price and not loose as much market share. This way they can avoid undercutting the Epic with a low price S35. Ta da! Instant Epic Light.
 
I never believed that Red was going to release a camera at the initial price point announced for the Scarlet, and had serious doubts about the subsequently announced interations of the Scarlet, and now it appears to be official. I agree with Barry that this latest announcement indicates that the whole concept of the Scarlet is essentially abandoned, but again this is no surprise. I try not to spend to much time on Red's annoying marketing hype until they actually have shipping products.​
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You know what's cool? The "gap" that Scarlet will no longer "fill"...is being filled by other Products. AF100, Sony's new series that was just annouced, and more to come for sure. So....yes...they're out....but others are now in. :)
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I be surprised if they don't completely scrap the 2/3" Scarlet.

Most certainly, a price hike is going to be coming for the newly-named Epic Lite. But, what other features can they stick on the Lite that won't get it too close to what the full-blown Epic will offer?

I mean, I'd they're raising the price, they have to increase performance/features. But they ether be careful or they will get it too close to Epic, and still cut into sales. Guess I'm really doubting this move by the RED gang.


Gives me a little more certainty that the F3 is the right cam for me.
 
Barry_Green said:
Unquestionably. Absolutely. The Epic brand is going to be reinforced by whatever new announcement comes out... he's not going to incorporate the Scarlet S35 design to water down the Epic brand. This is about clarification and identity, just like their prior "man up" statement.
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It is about branding, but ultimately will throw away market share.

A large part of the original allure of the Scarlet sisters was that they would allow non-Hollywood insiders (read everyday Joes) to be able to take an innovative cinema camera to the dance at a point they could afford. This made the Scarlets as rabidly popular as a nymphomaniac at a high school dance.

However, as the Scarlets grew up, innovative was redefined to include the low cut blouse of the large sensor cinema cameras. Now if the Scarlets get rebranded as gold diggers and they may end up with insiders like Martin Sheen, or very few Joes asking them to dance.

(Yes I'm being facetious.)

The Red one claims a signal to noise ratio at greater than 66 dB and claims 11.3 stops. The F3 claims 63db and greater than 11 stops, with greater light sensitivity than a 5DMk3. (Epic is 18 stops but costs $28k for a brain, so not the same category.)

From Allister Chapman:
"Most digital cinema projectors have less than 10 stops of lattitude (SMPTE specify 9 stops for cinema projection) and domestic and even many professional monitors struggle to achieve 6 stops. Our eyes only have an instantaneous 13 to 14 stop range. So, given that to avoid flat, washed out pictures the dynamic range must be reduced from the 11 or more stops captured in camera to a more sensible 6 to 9 stops for presentation with current methods (even for film-out 10 stops would be enough), why do we need 16 stops?"
 
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Mike McNeese said:
I be surprised if they don't completely scrap the 2/3" Scarlet.
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I agree, I think the 2/3'' idea was dead the second that cheap S35 size sensors hit the market. Think about it, by the time they'd actually even get to producing the 2/3'' the market will be flooded with S35 sensor cameras. Theres no point in going backwards for a company who has always been in front. I could possibly see the 2/3'' bodys being used for 3D applications, but then what happened to their "3D rig" they showed... I think the only thing that would save the 2/3'' Scarlet cameras would be to make them effortless in syncing for 3D type applications. If they made the fixed lens 2/3'' completely 3D synced with a cable for everything to work together with no setup, including lens sync for focus, then they have their nitch. People actually don't like to use S35 for 3D, and tend to lean towards the 2/3'' for greater control. This is the only spot I see scarlet filling. But even then... by the time Scarlet makes it out, I think other solutions will be there.

I think RED really bit themselves with what they did. They took WAY too long to develop from the time they announced. It disappointed many while allowing other companies to fill the gap quickly. I do not like the way they handled the teasing and then price hikes. I understand why it happened, but doesn't mean I have to like it.

They should have stayed with the RED One's body and just did sensor upgrades and CF module upgrades, instead of building the EPIC. They pushed away a lot of people longing for the wait. The true RED Fanboys are the only ones I see happy. Everyone else just got tired of it and went in another direction.

To be honest $50k for a working Epic would not make me happy when something like the Alexa is on the market at the same price but yealds more of a professional profile in the film world. Specially in a world where 2k post is still pretty much king.

who knows where sony will be on their 4k camera by then. They DO have the 4k chips now, so its a matter of what they do with them. I don't think they will make a 4k camera though, I think it will be a 3k camera from the 4k sensor, so no worry about debayering. But if its an all in one design, I think cinematographers would like that more than the - you have to buy every single piece separate including the cables - approach that RED has. Cinematographers just want the image to be beautiful, and the camera to work, we don't want to worry about what module we need to buy.
 
I think it was a combination of things.

- Jannard made that comment about Scarlet S35 shipping before NAB a few weeks ago. I bet he's been thinking about this for a while.

- Their back is against the wall in terms of schedule. Competitors are releasing large sensor cameras. Their only large sensor camera close to shipping is Epic but it costs a lot of money. So it's easier and faster to de-feature (or filter chips) the almost finished Epic than to continue development on the Scarlet S35 which is on another platform. I don't see the Epic light costing less than $10K when the normal Epic cost $28K. You can't save that much money through de-featuring or filtering chips. The mechanical hardware (body and boards) is probably nearly identical because this is the only way they would be able to save time on the schedule.

I also think the 2/3" Scarlet may be at risk. I bet they will find out it cost more to make than the price they are selling. A price hike would kill it with the market because there are too many options already (and more coming) with cameras with larger sensors. A 2/3" sensor just can't compete in the long run with a much larger sensor in terms of sensitivity. The DOF fad is waning but people will always love low noise and more dynamic range. There will be way more lens options for the APS-C/S35 format as well.
 
Wow red. nice, never saw that one coming.

this company makes me lol so hard. Are people actually making buying decisions based on their promises anymore?
 
The thing with RED is, they got caught up in other things you may not know about. Here are some things to look at with RED...

RED One cameras are each about $26,000 average price once all needed items are bought from RED. Thats not including RED lenses. RED has sold over 8,000 RED One cameras

That comes out to making over $200,000,000 less Lenses or other things. With that $200 million dollars they made, some of that went towards buying an entire film studio called ... Red Studios which has 5 large sound stages, full lighting, and everything else.

They also built other facilities as well. On top of that they have been helping the invent of these new sensors, and upgrading the RED One.


Thats a tiny bit of what they've done with their money, BUT you have to realize all of that spending also means their heads are not just on cameras. They are building a whole "empire".

I believe they stretched their resources out too thin, and should have saved their money and growth until they put out their second camera. If they put all that hard earned money into the next big camera instead of buying a film studio, a show room, and other things, they would have been done already.

Adding more technicians to their line, to figure out their technical problems faster would have helped. They also need someone to keep them from adding too much. Sure its nice to put out a great camera, but when you keep adding and adding features with out actually putting out any other camera yet, just wastes time. They could have put out the EPIC a while back if they didn't try to add so many features to it. They have a problem of learning enough is enough and just put the damn thing out already. You can always go back and put out another camera. They wanted to do the whole "obsolete is obsolete" thing, but that obviously FAILED their first time round with the RED One which they are now rendering "obsolete" just by putting out a new camera thats better.

Stop worrying about putting out something that might become obsolete and just put it out in a reasonable time. Its technology its GOING to be come obsolete eventually, theres no way around it. They are the product of their own demise. They want to be the best, and put out the best. But by taking so long to do that, they let others step in, while NOT dropping prices. This means that by the time they do put out a camera at its price point, it won't be worth owning. They could take a huge hit simply because the R&D price tag is huge and they have to make that back before they can even see profit. It they keep expanding R&D and then dont put it out, they run risk of not making any money for a long time, and the possibility grows of another camera company putting out something that competes.
 
Perfectly plausible.

With that $200 million dollars they made, some of that went towards buying an entire film studio called ... Red Studios which has 5 large sound stages, full lighting, and everything else.
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Yep, the old Desi-Lu Studio. "Lucy I'm home!" I've seen the white van with the Red logo driving up there many times.
 
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Giuseppe Pugliese said:
They also need someone to keep them from adding too much. Sure its nice to put out a great camera, but when you keep adding and adding features with out actually putting out any other camera yet, just wastes time. They could have put out the EPIC a while back if they didn't try to add so many features to it. They have a problem of learning enough is enough and just put the damn thing out already. You can always go back and put out another camera. They wanted to do the whole "obsolete is obsolete" thing, but that obviously FAILED their first time round with the RED One which they are now rendering "obsolete" just by putting out a new camera thats better.
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I agree with this completely! This was their problem because the guy in charge (Jannard) is an enthusiast. It's like a guy building a custom home who keeps changing the plans. This drives the contractors crazy and ultimately you go way over budget and way pass the schedule. This happens with large weapons programs too where the customer (the Army, Navy, whatever) keeps changing the requirements and the engineers have to keep redoing everything. Jannard blames the delay on the complexity of the project and that may be true, but I bet it was mainly from all the design changes.

It's all really ironic because RED has convinced all their followers that the way the other companies were doing it (releasing products with incremental upgrades) was somehow some evil, intentional thing, when it's really just a reality of product development. Engineers can not design the perfect product because if they try, it will never get finished! You would just keep working on it, as RED has found out.
 
Piolet said:
I agree with this completely! This was their problem because the guy in charge (Jannard) is an enthusiast. It's like a guy building a custom home who keeps changing the plans. This drives the contractors crazy and ultimately you go way over budget and way pass the schedule. This happens with large weapons programs too where the customer (the Army, Navy, whatever) keeps changing the requirements and the engineers have to keep redoing everything. Jannard blames the delay on the complexity of the project and that may be true, but I bet it was mainly from all the design changes.

It's all really ironic because RED has convinced all their followers that the way the other companies were doing it (releasing products with incremental upgrades) was somehow some evil, intentional thing, when it's really just a reality of product development. Engineers can not design the perfect product because if they try, it will never get finished! You would just keep working on it, as RED has found out.
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Exactly, they need to learn when to stop developing new ideas and cramming them into a camera and just put the damn thing out already. For a lot of people RED One with just a few more updates would have been fine to hold everyone over for years

all these extra things are kind of gimmicky now the 18 stops is a little too much, sure its nice for some applications, but it also has its pitfalls as well. The time it takes them to put out EPIC they lost out on all the costumers they could have had with just updating the RED One more, and working on making some of their parts better/cheaper.

I really dont see a need for the EPIC camera when the RED One with MX sensor was all you really need. They are cramming too much into one camera and although its nice to have a camera with all that ability, I'm not sure people want to spend so much X amount of dollars and waiting time. Other than the fanboys I don't see many people happy with the thought of EPIC. The whole trying to make Epic like a DSLR thing was a total failer. by the time it comes out the DSLR movement is dead. No one in their right mind would buy an epic at that price to use as a stills camera, when the sensor is only 5K and there are cameras like Nikon and Canon who have much better sensors and higher resolution for photography.

They need real direction. Build cinematography cameras for the cinema world and be done with it. Stop trying to make cheap 2/3'' fix lens cameras, and stop with trying to come out with other gimmicks. They slowed things down so much, that I would never wanna even try to order a camera from them. Who wants to wait months for a camera? I want to place my order and get it, thats it. I was looking at buying some used RED Ones, if its good enough for over 30 major motion pictures with the biggest names in hollywood, than its good enough for me. Epic is just hype that I really don't bite into as a cinematographer
 
Did the f3 cause a rethink, I think so. It is not difficult to make one + one makes two with red. It is the same story as the dslr two years ago with the canons. At first they ridicule the competition saying how bad it is and then they change their product line up completely with the Scarlet and modular concept. Now we see the same thing. Just as the launch of the f3 we hear that the Epic is ready. They ridiculed the competitor again (in terms of price and performance etc) saying that the epic had already 100 000 views and the f3 none, I mean hours after the launch. 2 days latter the f3 just on reduser was more than 15 000 views before the threat was closed. Many thread have been created and very good opinion from many on reduser when the different test shot came out, again closed one after each other. Now just by enchantment the s35 scarlet who everyone on reduser was using as the benchmark disappears. Everyone was saying, who would choose an f3 compared to the s35 scarlet for price performance, now there won' t be any choice to be made because their will be no s35. With all this coincidence I can clearly see a pattern with red and competitors.
 
To the contrary of many I think that red strategy of going up market is a very bad one. If only they had listen to the market two years ago when the dslr craze came out, they would have seen that a lot of people and many professional where prepared to accept a lot of compromise in image quality to get that shallow death of field look. Just bring an 2.5k s35 scarlet with redone technology at about 5000 - 6000 dollar price point. The data would be only one quarter of the redone and with the bigger pixel the low light capability would be much better. They would have been able to produce it much quicker and enough differentiation against there higher end line with the 4k redone and 5k epic to warrant the big difference in price. If such a camera was here one year ago, we would not be talking of the dslr or the af100 and the likes coming from Sony. They would have a line of product that would cater from the prosumer to the high end. They would have sold in the tens of thousand of these cameras, making redcode a defacto standard in the industry. The volume would have given them stability and not a lot of space for there competitor (even if they don' t admit that these camera are there competitor, but everytime one comes out, like by magic they change there line-up!!!).

Now they are going for a smaller and smaller niche market. This market has changed dramatically. We are no more in a world where high dynamic range s35 sensor camera will cost you in the 100 000. Where renting was the only possible solution for nearly everyone. Red itself with the redone price has put a dent to that market. Most people will ow now, or rent the higher only in very special circumstance. When many people talk about the f3 they forget one thing, it is a 444 slog capable camera. In fact it is a mini Alexa camera with 14 stop of dynamic range. It is supposed to be just a firmware upgrade, perhaps sony expect to recoup its money on the 444 recorder 1 tb recorder. Even if it is at least $ 10 000 people won' t necessarily buy it, they might just rent it when they have some high end stuff and use a $ 2000 4.4.2 recorder with it most of the time. Sony is building a range now and they are a big company that could leverage there r&d and cost to adapt there pricing against there competitor like red or panasonic if need be. The only difference is that they could hurt much more red than Panasonic, as Red is catering for a smaller and smaller niche market. One product for me that illustrate all this is the Sony nxcam. If it comes with the 10 bit 4.2.2 hd-sdi, s35, 12 stop dymamic, low noise sensor of the f3 in the $5K - $7k, it will be everything I have been dreaming for the scarlet that will never be.
 
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