Detail and Skin Detail Gate Tests

rbirnbaum

rbirnbaum

Well-known member
Hello,

I haven't really seen any tests like the one I have done, and I have gotten so much from this community that I thought I'd like to give back and perhaps start a discussion around these.

On vimeo you can see the whole 4 mins of me changing settings and the difference it makes. I left the on-screen menus on so that we could see what I was selecting. A bit annoying but it helps me to remember and get a very quick view.

Some initial thoughts:
I find in camera Detail at 5 looks better than Sharpening in Resolve.
I find Crisp Setting makes no difference. - Need to Understand how it works.
I couldn't really make the Skin Detail Gate work in a way that gave me any visible results. - Need to check with you guys if the workflow was right?

It's a pity the instruction manual is so skimpy in these sections. Hard to understand how to use these features.

https://vimeo.com/239170740

Shot with Natural Light
Daylight WB
Custom Mode
10 Bit 24Pfs
S-Log
S-Gamut

Lens is Tair 11A with PL Mount - 135mm - No ND - Shot Wide Open

NR - Set at 30

This test is inspired by the forum pushing the camera, and trying to find out what the different menus may hide. I find CineEI mode as my default, but lately, shooting in Custom has opened up new possibilities.

Color Corrected in Resolve 14 -
Node 1 WB
Node 2 - F35_LC709 LUT

Here are some screen grabs:


Untitled_1.1.1.jpgUntitled_1.1.2.jpgUntitled_1.1.3.jpgUntitled_1.1.4.jpgUntitled_1.1.5.jpgScreen Shot 2017-10-20 at 4.09.24 PM.jpg
 
Last edited:
I know I am writing this on my own... but I am starting to understand the skin gate a little better. This Camera Flyer helped me get it a little more...

Screen Shot 2017-10-25 at 10.23.05 PM.jpg

http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/816495/F35%20Brochure%201_0.pdf

So, for the skin detail test you can pick a hue that you want to reduce detail from. I was doing the opposite. I was adding detail.
The other 2 options for picking hues are for adding detail or excluding hues that may have lost detail when you reduced detail on the skin hue.

Pretty interesting technology in my opinion and might be a miracle with older people. It basically means that you can soften their skin and add detail to the eyes...

I will test this out and do a video about it.

If anyone has any insights, please chip in.
 
Nice work, please keep it up and keep posting your findings. I'm sure there will be a great reference in the future. I no longer have a F35 but have a 9000PL now so I am curious to see if this applies for my camera or not. Thanks for sharing.
 
Love the initiative, however these things are so easy to do in Davinci these days, I'd find it hard to justify the efforts on-set compared to simply capturing a nice clean SLOG/SGamut image.
 
Grug said:
Love the initiative, however these things are so easy to do in Davinci these days, I'd find it hard to justify the efforts on-set compared to simply capturing a nice clean SLOG/SGamut image.
Click to expand...

Did some more tests today on the skin gate. If you put it in a shortcut to your user menu, it is really fast to access and activate. The benefit vs resolve is that again we are using the whole sensor info to extrapolate these skin gates. It actually gives a very pleasing effect on the skin, so I see this as a winner with certain talent. It also softens the skin hues without any further post, so it saves a lot of time. I am actually really impressed with the subtlety of the effect. Check my crows feet and cheek skin. :)

 
Sttratos said:
For the record, what I meant was, the skin detail function seems to work well, as your crows feet all but vanished. I paid attention since you asked to check your crows feet.
Click to expand...

I honestly thought that you couldn’t see any crows feet on my eyes to start with... and that’s i was just being ridiculous noticing the changes. And I just thought the picture would make you laugh! Sorry if I offended you. And Thanks for spending the time to check it out. Glad to get some confirmation from someone else who can tell the difference. I think on a larger projected screen this will definitely be more noticeable.

I am shooting a short film with an actress next week who is late 30’s trying to come across as early 30’s. Since we are using pretty low key lighting, I think the skin softening will look great.

Cheers again for the feedback!
 
rbirnbaum said:
I honestly thought that you couldn’t see any crows feet on my eyes to start with... and that’s i was just being ridiculous noticing the changes. And I just thought the picture would make you laugh! Sorry if I offended you. And Thanks for spending the time to check it out. Glad to get some confirmation from someone else who can tell the difference. I think on a larger projected screen this will definitely be more noticeable.

I am shooting a short film with an actress next week who is late 30’s trying to come across as early 30’s. Since we are using pretty low key lighting, I think the skin softening will look great.

Cheers again for the feedback!
Click to expand...

No offense taken at all. I just wanted to clarify because your reply seemed as if you thought I was joking. But the skin detail does a nice job. I agree that it's probably better to get it done in camera if it works that well. I can't think of a time where you would sit in post and go, I wish I could go back and turn skin detail off to make this actress look older. If you do it's not the skin detail's fault. The problem is that many skin detail features are garbage making skin look blotchy or overall just out of focus. But this looks nice.
 
Grug said:
Love the initiative, however these things are so easy to do in Davinci these days, I'd find it hard to justify the efforts on-set compared to simply capturing a nice clean SLOG/SGamut image.
Click to expand...


That assumes that one is involved in post or are willing to relinquish that to post. If you are a DP / shooter who has no involvement in post, you may not want to leave such things up to the person performing the post-work. Particularly if you have no idea who that person will be and their level of knowledge. And, of course, if you are shooting something that is live you will want to do things "in-camera" so they go out live the way you prefer them.

The samples from the OP have me confused. I always thought that "Skin Tone Detail", which is short for "Skin Tone Detail Correction", somewhat counter-intuitively to the abbreviated name reduces detail when engaged. But the sample pics appear to have less detail when Skin Tone Detail is set to "OFF". On Sony ENG cameras we were always told to keep the Skin Tone Detail set to "OFF" because it reduces picture detail, unless you were shooting an interview where you wanted the lines in the subject's face to be softened.

This post by Alister Chapman is in regard to the F55, but it may be informative for fs5 and fs7 users as well:

http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/Skin-Detail-Feature/td-p/231905


this post, from 2008, is along the lines of what I was told regarding use of Skin Tone Detail function on Sony cameras:

"I use it on rare occasions in interview work. It's politically incorrect, but nonetheless accurate to think of it as an "old folk talking head wrinkle" filter. You're essentially applying a slight bluring (lowering of detail, more accurately) to skin tones while leaving the rest of the image alone. It's only useful when you've got that particular problem. The rest of the time it's useless as it essentially lowers sharpness whenever it encounters color information in that tonal range. Leave it OFF.

Turn it ON only when you look in your monitor and think to yourself "That nice older lady or gentleman looks generally fine but I wish I could do something about all those wrinkles/blemishes." Oh, and it's essentially effective only for full size head shots. It's pretty useless at distance or for groups."

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-pro-handhelds/122965-how-do-you-feel-about-skin-tone-detail-camera.html
 
JPNola said:
That assumes that one is involved in post or are willing to relinquish that to post. If you are a DP / shooter who has no involvement in post, you may not want to leave such things up to the person performing the post-work. Particularly if you have no idea who that person will be and their level of knowledge. And, of course, if you are shooting something that is live you will want to do things "in-camera" so they go out live the way you prefer them.

The samples from the OP have me confused. I always thought that "Skin Tone Detail", which is short for "Skin Tone Detail Correction", somewhat counter-intuitively to the abbreviated name reduces detail when engaged. But the sample pics appear to have less detail when Skin Tone Detail is set to "OFF". On Sony ENG cameras we were always told to keep the Skin Tone Detail set to "OFF" because it reduces picture detail, unless you were shooting an interview where you wanted the lines in the subject's face to be softened.

This post by Alister Chapman is in regard to the F55, but it may be informative for fs5 and fs7 users as well:

http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/Skin-Detail-Feature/td-p/231905


this post, from 2008, is along the lines of what I was told regarding use of Skin Tone Detail function on Sony cameras:

"I use it on rare occasions in interview work. It's politically incorrect, but nonetheless accurate to think of it as an "old folk talking head wrinkle" filter. You're essentially applying a slight bluring (lowering of detail, more accurately) to skin tones while leaving the rest of the image alone. It's only useful when you've got that particular problem. The rest of the time it's useless as it essentially lowers sharpness whenever it encounters color information in that tonal range. Leave it OFF.

Turn it ON only when you look in your monitor and think to yourself "That nice older lady or gentleman looks generally fine but I wish I could do something about all those wrinkles/blemishes." Oh, and it's essentially effective only for full size head shots. It's pretty useless at distance or for groups."

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-pro-handhelds/122965-how-do-you-feel-about-skin-tone-detail-camera.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback JP. Those posts you've attached are very helpful. Defo for close ups nothing larger...

I am not sure what you mean by: The samples from the OP have me confused. I always thought that "Skin Tone Detail", which is short for "Skin Tone Detail Correction", somewhat counter-intuitively to the abbreviated name reduces detail when engaged. But the sample pics appear to have less detail when Skin Tone Detail is set to "OFF". On Sony ENG cameras we were always told to keep the Skin Tone Detail set to "OFF" because it reduces picture detail, unless you were shooting an interview where you wanted the lines in the subject's face to be softened.

What samples specifically are you referring too?
 
rbirnbaum said:
Thanks for the feedback JP. Those posts you've attached are very helpful. Defo for close ups nothing larger...

I am not sure what you mean by: The samples from the OP have me confused. I always thought that "Skin Tone Detail", which is short for "Skin Tone Detail Correction", somewhat counter-intuitively to the abbreviated name reduces detail when engaged. But the sample pics appear to have less detail when Skin Tone Detail is set to "OFF". On Sony ENG cameras we were always told to keep the Skin Tone Detail set to "OFF" because it reduces picture detail, unless you were shooting an interview where you wanted the lines in the subject's face to be softened.

What samples specifically are you referring too?
Click to expand...

In the video, there is more detail in image with Skin Tone Detail Correction turned ON than when Skin Tone Detail Correction is set to "OFF". It seems to me that it should be just the opposite since, if I understand correctly, the Skin Tone Detail Correction function is intended to DECREASE detail. But in the video the image becomes softer with Skin Tone Detail disengaged and more detailed when Skin Tone Detail Correction is on. The Skin Tone Detail Correction is making the wrinkles and lines more noticeable. My understanding of Skin Tone Detail is that it is intended to do just the opposite- make the details in the skin less noticeable, more "smoothed".
 
JPNola said:
In the video, there is more detail in image with Skin Tone Detail Correction turned ON than when Skin Tone Detail Correction is set to "OFF". It seems to me that it should be just the opposite since, if I understand correctly, the Skin Tone Detail Correction function is intended to DECREASE detail. But in the video the image becomes softer with Skin Tone Detail disengaged and more detailed when Skin Tone Detail Correction is on. The Skin Tone Detail Correction is making the wrinkles and lines more noticeable. My understanding of Skin Tone Detail is that it is intended to do just the opposite- make the details in the skin less noticeable, more "smoothed".
Click to expand...

JP, posting some images to see if we agree. Your logic matches mine but my eyes are seeing something different...

SKIN DETAIL: OFF

Screen Shot 2018-04-27 at 9.53.40 AM.jpg

SKIN DETAIL: ON

Screen Shot 2018-04-27 at 9.54.23 AM.jpg
 
Suprisingly enough, i went ahead and gave your skin detail settings a try on my Panavision HD900F (Sony F900/3) and to my surprise they really work wonders :)
 
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