Deprecitation, Selling EX1 ? Buy F3 ,FS100

M

morgan_moore

Major Contributor
I wrote a long blog entry about the choices I have over camera ownership

I dont know if anyone can be bothered to wade through it and maybe chip in thier thoughts..

========

Pony for a Sony?

I recently blogged on why you or I don’t need a new camera

I probably don’t

But I still can be made to sweat by my DSLR

When I’m shooting for me a DSLR is great – I use it to its strengths

But when I’m shooting for a client often the hairs on my neck start to tingle

Moiré short record times and the killer HDMI wobble sweat me out

When the Hdmi on the monitor wobbles connection can be lost, going blind for a moment is bad – but the cameras actually stop rolling too – which is much worse

Now I have a Sony EX1, its part of what makes me a ‘professional DSLR shooter’ I have another camera in my van that can handle jobs that DSLR cant handle

Brick walls, long takes, single takes that one MUST capture

I have my Sony EX1, I need my Sony Ex1, I rely on my Sony EX1, but only very rarely do I actually shoot with my Sony EX1

The last time was a job at a mine with poor access – the inbuilt 400 2.8 became super handy, so the EX1 was my camera for the shoot

Sometimes my EX1 sings, and other times it farts, I’m not sure why – I think it could be the lens and diffraction making it look shoddy in bright light with a small aperture and a tiny chip

So I have a camera I must have but never use

Today a corporate shooting friend of mine was looking for a new camera after their old one went swimming

The camera they want? A Sony EX1

So they have made me an offer to buy it

Now if I flogged my 7d and chipped in a grand maybe less I could get a new Sony FS100 (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/nxcamcorders/nex-fs100e/overview)

If I sold my Sound Devices recorder too I would be ‘in profit’ by a reasonable amount

This got me thinking about DEPRECIATION

My little EX1 will have depreciated 1500 quid in three years, or 500 quid a year

That’s pretty bloody good value

There was a bit of a cheat in that I got the EX1 before the pound collapsed against the Yen

Hmm so a good Sony holds its value.. that got me thinking

The FS100 is a bit of a wonky camera, no ND filters, no professional connectivity - it might be a depreciator

What about an F3 then?

The Sound Devices recorder would have to go .. and its something I love but I don’t love synch sound that much really and I'm not enough of a sound records to fully get the best from it

So back to depreciation

The Fs100 is wonky, probably a bit plastic and certainly ‘this years stunt’

I reckon in a couple of years it could be worth next to nothing

Now the f3 has all that professional connectivity,

I don’t understand professional connectivity beyond hating mini HDMI which is certainly not professional connectivity

I guess quality connectivity could be of use to me if I start getting a few more gigs, I guess it feeds out to a desk at a live show for example – the stuff you cant really do with a DSLR

The F3 also has availability of SLog which I don’t understand but it seems to get the camera over the magic 50 Mbs which seems to be the fabled BBC standard or something if you hook up a recorder

But the F3 is 10 grand

But I guess if its like my EX1 it wont be a depreciator, in fact its probably the last camera I would want until we get affordable RAW, which could be 6 months or 4 years

So looking at the F3 as the last camera until RAW, built in ND, good depreciation and nice to use with no wobbly wires

It could be the camera for me

Now the F3 has a G nikkor adapter available so I could get my 17-55 nikkor that I see as the best non telephoto ENG lens

I could flog my 70-200 canon too and use my nikkor 70-200

The F3 is not very small form, it wont fly on my steadicam and cant be jammed in a fridge

But I will be keeping my 5d and that is a great camera for odd angles especially mixed with my nikkor 14mm lens – suuuuper wide

So I can get an Fs100, An F3 – or do nothing and I need YOUR help in this choice

Because its not clear to me at all

One thing that concerns me is the F3 /Fs100 ergonomics

I love DSLR controls,. Dialable white balance

Dialble ISO

Three colour on screen histograms, selective focus super check (when not rolling)

There are things that make DLSRs especially the ‘I talk to a monitor’ 7d very very nice to use

Help me if you are an Fs100 or F3 owner..

Is the sound recorder any good?

Are there three colour histograms?

Is there an FS100 to Nikon G mount adapter?

If I am recording and pull a (hdmi monitor) wire out does it stop rolling?


These are the things that will help me choose

The F3 – can I take the handle off ?

I guess I am going to have to go to a shop and get some face time with these things, there is too much white noise on the net to be able to find what I need to know
 
Last edited:
How long is your friend willing to wait for EX-1? If he needs it right away, your choice is fairly easy, get the F3 if
it will pay for itself with the work you do. Inevitably something better and more affordable will be introduced, but
it really doesn't matter since it will do most everything you need quite well for a good number of years.

If your friend can wait, then you might consider the FS100 when it is released and we know more about it.
 
I also own an EX1 that depreciated USD$3k in 3 years. I think this is about as good as it gets for cameras considering the popularity and still quite good performance of the EX1. I would doubt that the FS100 would be all that different. Perhaps the F3 may not depreciate quite as quickly, but then if it drops 15% a year like the EX1, that will be about $2k/year of loss, whereas the FS100 would only lose $750/year since it is a much smaller investment. Personally I tend to think that, if anything, lower priced cameras with particularly like the EX1 or FS100 with their very unique features and performance for their market segment are the ones that hold their value the best since they have a larger pool of buyers who can afford and are interested in them and probably more buyers who are not on the cutting edge or fully informed and might be willing to buy your camera for a bit above used market value if you have the patience to wait for such a buyer, but that is just a theory. I mean, there's always that chance that any production or used camera buyer who can afford a $20k camera will only be asking for Epic-S in a year (of course quite unlikely, but maybe true on some level), whereas there are no future cameras currently on the horizon that I know of in the FS100's price range with similar specs/features.
 
FS100 is not out yet. It does have a histogram. Also, I think you need to take into consideration a few more things with the F3. SLog add on looks like something around $3k. Also, to get the most out of the F3 you are going to need a capable external recorder. I'm not saying the F3 isn't worth it at all, just that there is some additional costs to consider.

There is no dialable ISO on the F3 or FS100, both has 3 presets you can set. Not sure how hard it is to switch to other gain values. I think the FS100 will be a good seller and holder of value till the next version comes out personally.
 
Thanks for the thoughts..

The F3 has Slog and other stuff that may not be relevant to me (im happy with XDCam in the EX1 just not the lens and sensor size) but, I guess, could keep it as a serious tool for some years and therefore hold its value

If a client wanted me to record at a fatter rate I guess Id hire and bill the recorder to/for them

My concern of the devaluation of the FS100 is that it could be like the 7d in devaluation..

The 7d is really threatened in resale value due to the t2i GH2 or where ever we are now - basic same features for half the price

(of course just like my D3 stills camera just because it may have low value due to the paper competition it is still a useful tool to me)

Of course I guess the F3 opens me to some other work (I dont know) in that it could be rigged for part of a live multicam gig in a way that the DSLRs and FS100 cant

That might get me a few more gigs or some rentals .. not many in my region will own one of these

In terms of the F3 going out due to a $25k 4k raw shooter - will the post houses actually keep up or want that res .. I think a lot of sensible people now would choose F3 over Red right now for easy post (a guess)

In terms of controls .. I love the dial WB dial Colour temp .. and Three Colour histos of the 5d - im not sure either sony has that.. or the movable focus check

One other thing - is there a Nikkor G solution for the FS100 ?

While my business cannot really justify an F3 I did occur to me that the two most expensive stills cameras that I own - Hassy H1 and Digiback and the D3 have actually depreciated far less than a lot of the prosumer junk I have also bought so have actually proved to have low annual cost - and they are both still used by me the hassy since 2005

S
 
Last edited:
IT seems you dont need the functions of the F3.

if you dont know "about pro connections other than you dont like wobly HDMI", you probably wont benefit from the F3. This isnt in a derogatory sense, it just says that for the productions you do, the value i see in the 13k F3 in as far as it being production friendly( on the production types i work on), is far beyond your needs, and there is little point in paying extra for it.

The AF100, is the middle ground. mostly pro connectors, good image quality, but still offers flexibility in that it can play ball with cheaper lenses.

The FS100, solves many of the issues of the 5D/7D, while retaining: light weight, good lowlight, simple post workflow, cheap media, but gives you things like clean 1080p out over HDMI, no record limits, less finicky operation, no over heating, 1080-60P, RAZOR sharp images. However has no pro connectors, nor is it meant for the professional workflow. ( im talking high end, where client monitoring, genlock, timecode,10bit, 444 recording etc...) Its meant to be the upgrade for the DSLR shooter.

For Me; the F3 is the conglomeration of everything ive ever wanted in a camera. Just a clean, sensitive, sharp 1080p, with the basics of professional production tools and utilities in camera. SDI, Genlock, etc.... Of course its more expensive, but im willing to pay that premium. it makes sense in my business.
 
TimurCivan said:
IT seems you dont need the functions of the F3.

if you dont know "about pro connections other than you dont like wobly HDMI", you probably wont benefit from the F3. This isnt in a derogatory sense, it just says that for the productions you do, the value i see in the 13k F3 in as far as it being production friendly( on the production types i work on), is far beyond your needs, and there is little point in paying extra for it.

The AF100, is the middle ground. mostly pro connectors, good image quality, but still offers flexibility in that it can play ball with cheaper lenses.

The FS100, solves many of the issues of the 5D/7D, while retaining: light weight, good lowlight, simple post workflow, cheap media, but gives you things like clean 1080p out over HDMI, no record limits, less finicky operation, no over heating, 1080-60P, RAZOR sharp images. However has no pro connectors, nor is it meant for the professional workflow. ( im talking high end, where client monitoring, genlock, timecode,10bit, 444 recording etc...) Its meant to be the upgrade for the DSLR shooter.

For Me; the F3 is the conglomeration of everything ive ever wanted in a camera. Just a clean, sensitive, sharp 1080p, with the basics of professional production tools and utilities in camera. SDI, Genlock, etc.... Of course its more expensive, but im willing to pay that premium. it makes sense in my business.
Click to expand...

What he said! :)

I don't think the 7D has devalued as much as you think. Looking at the going rate on eBay they are still up there. Matter of fact, I see some going for more than I paid retail ($1825) with lens!!! Reason being, it's not just a video camera, it's a phenomenal stills camera that is built like a tank. Buying again I'd get the 7D in a heartbeat as I like the controls better. I'd loose VERY little selling my

I look at it this way, if you are more worried about the camera devaluing than what the camera can do for you, I think you need to evaluate your priorities maybe. I honestly look at depreciation second because what I care about is what I can do with it. Sure, if another camera comes out next year, FS200 that is better, it doesn't mean you need to upgrade to it if the camera you bought does what you need. I paid my 7D off in 3 jobs. It can devalue to zero and it's still not going to affect me! :)

Did your EX1 pay for itself to you? To me, that is value. The F3 for me wouldn't pay for itself, I just don't do enough quantity. The FS100/AF100, absolutely. People ask for me because I have an AF100.

Not sure on the adapter, gonna need to use some google-fu on that!
 
I dont take that as derogatory!

While I dont work on bigger productions I still have high personal expectations and having lost chunks of interview due to HDMI wobble its a big deal to me

Frankly see it from the customers point of view..

Iphone footage is better than 7d footage that doesnt exist

And the lower end customers are actually less understanding than the higher end customers who are somewhat used t the vagaries or at least set up times of 'cine' gear

Its a legitimate question..

Do these cameras keep rolling if you bash the HDMi lead or pull it out?

I have hdmi monitors so cant afford to swap to SDI for the moment

My other point about the other connectors is their abilty to keep the F3 from devaluating

S
 
im about 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% certain that the FS100 wont stop recording if the hdmi is pulled out.
 
This comes down to clients.

Right now I own:
Canon 7D
PMW-EX1
PMW-F3

I shoot the 7D the least. It's there for stills, and to demonstrate to clients who are determined to use a DSLR that I'm fit for the job. It also is very handy as a rental cam - quick cash when young shooters want to rent a camera, and minimal risk if they were to damage it.

The EX1 is my corporate and ENG bread and butter. I can't sell it, it's too profitable. If the right opportunity presented itself, I'd trade it out for an EX1R or an EX3, but that's it. Right now, I still have a client base that needs this camera. For industrial and event shoots where I have to move fast without assistants, the deep focus and reliable zoom lens are a better fit for the job than the beauty of the F3 with primes.

The PMW-F3 camera is for narrative and music video work. And high end corporate. It's the camera I'm growing my business into, and slowly demonstrating to clients that they should be paying the extra fee for.

As others have said, it sounds like you don't need the F3's pro features. An AF-100 might be a good compromise.

But what I would ask is - this friend - if you did need to use the EX1 after selling it, is he likely to be able to rent it to you, or let you borrow it, at a competitive rate, or on a barter for free days with your new camera? If it's that sort of friend, it could a win win.
 
I'm in exactly the same situation, although I think the EX1 an F3 are complimentary rather than the F3 being a replacement for the EX1.

I base that conclusion on the fact that the F3 will be difficult for live events. At this time nothing I can afford in the way of lenses will do auto focus, auto iris, etc. on the F3.

That and a big sensor isn't going to be forgiving on focus due to the shallow depth of field. Perfect for narative cinema, a pain for live events.

I did seriously look at the FS100. I can live with putting ND filters in a matte box though that will make it far less portable.

Also, for me the codec isn't a deal breaker. HDMI only wasn't a deal breaker.

What was a deal breaker for me was to learn that the FS100 has a signal to noise ratio of 54db. That's good, right in there with the EX1, but its no where near as good as the F3 at 63db. The F3 is just exceptionally clean. Its a better picture when viewed big, full stop.

For now, my Nanoflash will do just fine to capture F3 images on a better codec. It won't be 10bit, but the F3 footage looks mighty fine. Maybe a new recorder later. When people have S-Log they'll want the 10bit to grade. For footage that's close to what you want due to the proper picture profile, with 4.2.2 color and a much higher bit rate from the Nano it will grade very well.

Therefore, my biggest consideration is how to keep the EX1 and still get an F3.

PS. I sold my 7D, picked up a T2i, applied a Magic Lantern hack and now I like it better than the 7D for a much lower cost even though its mostly relegated to taking photos these days.
 
This all makes sense

I would not shoot corporate with primes, Id go between the 17-55 nikkor (G) and my nikkor 70-200 G

As for deep focus (I guess I would have to know when to up the gain and stop down a little - to get 'the elusive 2/3 look' from the F3 :) )

Its a look a very rarely need

I own maybe 10 nikkors 14 - 400 - some G some old school, all focusing one direction

The nikkor 17-55 2.8 is as (afaik) the best zoom lens (that is not Red or above) presenting a nice zoom range for quick shoulder shooting on a S35 sensor in a solid body (unlike the canon s**t zooms that berger are currently engineering for the FS100)

(both my 24-105 and 16-35 canons have wobbly front elements that jitter shots - nikkor Gs are solid with internal zoom mechanisms)

Im still not clear on the usability of G lenses with the Fs100

G lens is big seller for me - as is the ability to flog my canon bottle tops

The AF 100 doesnt match my lenses, and is 'a bit poo' IMO (ducks head) - there is something about 4/3 that doesnt float my boat - I think the 'roll to blown' is poor and lowlight

The F3 is the king of the (1080) hill for those sensor attributes - which both have a heavy impact on lighting budget and my fast shooting style

As for renting the EX its possible - but I kind of have it with me on all jobs in case I have to film a brick wall ! !

So while I may not need 100mbs I am very keen to get solid usability

Another FS100 question - will it run off my Vlock bricks?

Keep em coming ..

SMM
 
indeed they are not, nor are roll time, overheating or HDMI wobble missing footage

getting a FS or F3 amalgamates my 'safe' camera (EX1) with the camera I enjoy (7d) and I keep my Fools camera 5d for steadicam, 14mm/FF35 and fridge/glovebox shots

mix that with glass I own and like and I could be a happy bunny

S
 
I watched the low light tests from Philip Bloom between the FS100/F3 specifically (and the AF100) and I don't fully believe the noise numbers I read from Sony on the F3. Or, it's just that because of the different processing, there is a perceived difference. At +18dB between both, I didn't see 9dB more noise in the FS100 footage at all. I found them to be pretty close. And then of course with the FS100 at +30dB I was totally blown away with how little the noise was present compared to what I was expecting to see. Until someone does a comparison of the EX1 to the FS100 from a noise perspective, the numbers mean little to me. Noise is subjective in many ways since it has different signatures.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top