Delivery!

taubkin

taubkin

Veteran
Hey, I'm probably the last person in the world to think about this, but I still wanted to check out with you guys.

Say I get a pretty HVX and some P2 or other storage solution for capture. The worst thing I'll have to face will be delivery, right? I mean, every time I have to deliver HD content I will have to rent a 10K deck and make a tape that goes for around 100 Dollars.

I understand that as long as I do all my post from the digital P2 data, I'm probably fine delivering my material in DV, right? - I mean, a Digibeta shot dubbed to DV is much better than a DV shot, right?

So what about shooting and editing DVCProHD and delivering in HDV? Does that sound like the most stupid thing to do? Because to me it doesnt...

I get an HVX and a HDV deck, so I can use the DV support in both, deliver in DV for NTSC projects (and sometimes dub to something fancier through an external HD to a post house) and deliver regular HD material in HDV (For broadcasters, at least - they will probably adopt HDV for lower end stuff like they did with DV), and still have the option on getting a DVCProHD dub for more important projects.

That way Projects like industrial videos, and other meaningless stuff could be even stored in HDV, for a reasonable cost-effective solution, and only those more important - and more expensive - projects would retain their full DVCProHD in the end...

Am I way off?

EDIT- My previous title was giving a wrong impression, I'd be grateful if any moderator could change it... Sorry guys...
 
taubkin said:
I mean, every time I have to deliver HD content I will have to rent a 10K deck and make a tape that goes for around 100 Dollars.
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Well, depends on what you mean by "delivery". Deliver to who? The end customer? A TV station? A DVD replicator? Who you're sending the footage to makes a big impact on what you choose as the delivery medium.

If whoever you're sending the footage to demands DVCPRO-HD tape, then yes you could rent a $25,000 deck (not $10k, it's $25k) and make a $46 tape copy. But that's only valid if you're sending it to someone who has that deck and wants to receive it in that format.

Also, how long is your project? If it's a 30-second commercial, you could just burn that to a 10-cent CD-ROM and hand them the digital file. If it's under 5 minutes, you could burn that on a 50-cent DVD-ROM. If it's under 9 minutes you could burn it on a dual-layer DVD.

For longer capacities you have many other choices. Eventually we'll have 15gb to 50gb blu-ray and HD-DVD discs to choose from. And, don't forget that you could always just send an external hard disk! Sounds extravagant, but think about it -- an 80gb USB2 hard disk will cost about $50-$60 by the time the camera comes out. You could put almost 90 minutes of footage onto one of those, and it costs *LESS* than DVCPRO-HD tape.

Now, if you're talking about delivering a watchable version (such as a DVD-player-playable DVD, vs. .AVI files on a DVD-ROM) then you could always author a WMV-10 high-def DVD that can be played on desktop computers. Or on an Avel LinkPlayer. Or on blu-ray or HD-DVD DVDs.

Really, using tape would be a last resort, and only if the intended recipient has a DVCPRO-HD tape deck.

I understand that as long as I do all my post from the digital P2 data, I'm probably fine delivering my material in DV, right?
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Again -- delivering to who? If you're talking about to master a final DVD, then maybe. If you're talking about doing anything high-def, then no, going to DV would be a really bad thing to do.

I mean, a Digibeta shot dubbed to DV is much better than a DV shot, right?
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Depends on the camera. If you're comparing a shot from a $50,000 DigiBeta camera, dubbed to dv, vs. a $399 RCA HandyCam DV camera, then yes obviously the DigiBeta will blow the RCA into the weeds. If instead you're talking about a $50,000 DigiBeta vs. a $25,000 SDX900 (shooting in DV mode) then no, I would bet there would be no discernible difference between the two.

So what about shooting and editing DVCProHD and delivering in HDV? Does that sound like the most stupid thing to do? Because to me it doesnt...
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If you're happy with what HDV does to your footage, and you feel like you have to deliver HDV on tape to someone, then sure, go ahead. But keep in mind you'll need TWO HDV decks, one for 720 and one for 1080, because they're not compatible at the firewire level.

(For broadcasters, at least - they will probably adopt HDV for lower end stuff like they did with DV),
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Don't count on that. First, very very few broadcasters are accepting HD-anything; I think at last count there were only six stations in the country (out of 1500? 2000?) who were broadcasting the news in HD.

But even if you find one, ask them what they prefer. Don't go buying a $4,000 Sony HDV deck and a $4,000 JVC HDV deck, just to find out that the broadcaster would prefer to receive the footage pre-digitized on a hard disk or DVD anyway. Because they might.

Am I way off?
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Not at all. Dubbing DVCPRO-HD to HDV is not all that dissimilar to dubbing DV over to BetaSP, and we've had to do that for broadcasters for years.

The thing to watch is: will the broadcasters you're dealing with even have HDV gear? My local Cox affiliate just got a BetaSP deck last year. LAST YEAR! BetaSP!

I know some stations are accepting DVD for broadcast, and most can take DV (because DVCPRO now accounts for about 70% of news-gathering equipment, so almost all broadcasters have DVCPRO gear now). But HDV/DVCPRO-HD/HDCAM... that stuff is rarely seen inside a news station. At least now.

So I'd say go talk to the sales and production departments at your local stations. Find out what formats they accept. And ask 'em what their plans are. You may find surprising answers.
 
Barry_Green said:
If you're happy with what HDV does to your footage, and you feel like you have to deliver HDV on tape to someone, then sure, go ahead. But keep in mind you'll need TWO HDV decks, one for 720 and one for 1080, because they're not compatible at the firewire level...

Don't go buying a $4,000 Sony HDV deck and a $4,000 JVC HDV deck.
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Whoa!

What about converting instead from DVCProHD to D-VHS. Footage could then be archived onto S-VHS videotape at ~ 25GB/$4.00 a pop!

The VCRs will record or playback native 1080i or 720p in a full bitrate ATSC broadcast format.

You can thus deliver a broadcast ready true high definition finished product that is easily dubbed, portable, and dirt-cheap.
 
Interesting suggestion -- probably a lot more viable than HDV decks, although the question of delivery becomes, again, "deliver to who?" If the intended recipient has a D-VHS deck, that might be a much more viable solution than HDV (same bitstream, cheaper tapes, longer storage, etc).

You will still be compromising your footage (just as you would if you saved it to HDV, or to WMV-9, etc) but as a cheap way to back up something that's at least still high-def, that might be a way to go.
 
Barry_Green said:
Interesting suggestion -- probably a lot more viable than HDV decks, although the question of delivery becomes, again, "deliver to who?" If the intended recipient has a D-VHS deck, that might be a much more viable solution than HDV (same bitstream, cheaper tapes, longer storage, etc).

You will still be compromising your footage (just as you would if you saved it to HDV, or to WMV-9, etc) but as a cheap way to back up something that's at least still high-def, that might be a way to go.
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One is "compromising the footage" in the exact same manner that conversion of any and all HD footage to ATSC "compromises" the viewing experience.

The end product on ST-120 S-VHS media holds two hours of broadcast grade and fully broadcast ready HD content. Note that HDV and WMV-9 are not broadcast ready formats.

I think what you are really trying to say is that for archiving one's raw footage for later editing, it is best to stay in the native capture format.

Converting DVC ProHD to ATSC is best delayed until editing of the native footage is complete and ready for delivery in a broadcastable format. :)
 
I see what you mean, Barry. Actually, come to think of it, I'm starting to wonder what the heck am I going to do with HD, anyways... I mean, I don't see plans for broadcasters to go there in a near future, and probably HD would only fit my needs if I were to embark on a larger scale indy feature/short project and finish it in HD or even film. I am starting to feel I'll be renting the HVX and not buying it, for quite some time...
 
I agree with what hddoc said. And yes, I do believe ATSC "seriously compromises" the viewing experience! At least when it comes to sports -- the footage is massively compromised. So I couldn't imagine doing that to my archives or delivering a deliverable in that format. Dramatic narrative doesn't suffer nearly so much, but sports footage can drive one batty.

Like you said, delay it until the very last possible second... if you ever think you'll need to revisit the footage, don't ATSC-ize it...
 
Barry_Green said:
I do believe ATSC "seriously compromises" the viewing experience! At least when it comes to sports -- the footage is massively compromised. So I couldn't imagine doing that to my archives or delivering a deliverable in that format. Dramatic narrative doesn't suffer nearly so much, but sports footage can drive one batty.
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Barry,
Are you set up to watch HDTV at your home?

You should check out some of the sports broadcasting on HDNet (hockey is coming as is NCAA football) or current baseball broadcasts on InHD.

Mark Cuban has effectively shattered the myth of 720p sport broadcast superiority with HDNet's 1080i productions.

We have come a very long way in eliminating compression artifact from 1080i productions, but stations and that "bit-starve" their signal by multicasting are doing their HD appreciating viewers no favors.
 
Yes... I have had HDTV in my house for a year now, and Im amazed at how even at the compression stage things have improved. It kinda sucks now, cause I only have 4 HD channels and I just cant watch the other 400 channels anymore.
 
Jarred,

If you do not access to Shaw Cable which carries lots of HD content, get yourself a sub to ExpressVu DBS. They also have lots of content.

Even better, get a grey market sub to DISH Network for all the VOOMs, HBO, HDNet, etc.
 
Jared I just had HDTV hooked up WOW! A side benefit is they played the Austin Indie film I've been dying to see "Master of the Game" today. I love it and I'm hooked. I've had an HDTV for quite a while,but never had a reciever. Best Buy had a rebate where if I bought the reciever from them the full price is rebated(DirectTV). Five channels of stunning HD content!
 
Yeah i was surprised.. It looked ok on the 30" hdtv i have but when i started watching it through the 100" projector i was blown away.. and its only a 720p projector.
 
I have 10 HD channels that come with my cable package on Comcast, I can also add premium HD channels such as HBO. Showtime, etc. The box has a DVI connector on it as well as optical for audio. The DVI directly feeds my projector with DVI input. The whole feeds a 10 foot screen and looks awesome. The cable box also has a PVR with 10 hours of HD storage.

My DVD player also has a DVI output with internal uprez to HD - I just wish the DVI switches weren't so expensive.

Michael
 
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