Deakins says digital has surpassed film

bruce southerland

Active member
In the latest issue of "American Cinematographer", Roger Deakins states--"...with the Alexa I believe digital has finally surpassed film in terms of quality." He goes on to state that the Alexa's tonal range, color space and latitude exceed the capabilities of film. This response comes after shooting his latest feature, "In Time", with the Alexa camera--his first digital capture feature.
 
...more here:

Deakins claims that the ALEXA gives him superior exposure latitude, which basically means that he can shoot things at night or with very little lighting and still get a picture, whereas he could not with film. To my knowledge, no prior digital system actually had a wider exposure latitude than actual film.

http://collider.com/roger-deakins-in-time-digital/118690/

http://collider.com/roger-deakins-interview-true-grit-bond-23/75435/

To clarify to those reading this and as an preemptive strike against, I must clarify that very little lighting is in context of Roger Deakin's work. This does not mean he's pumping ISO and shooting wide open with no-lighting or 1k's. It likely means he's just not having to put twelve 18k's on condors.

Point being, he is happy that he can use less light.... which means still more than most people on DVXuser get to use.

I say this because we don't JUST light to get exposure. We still need lights to make an image look how we want it. Only once in a very seldom lot, do we find natural lighting which conveys exactly what our artistic desires desire... and even then, with the changing nature of the world, our sun, and etc, we likely find that wonderful and perfect natural light is fleeting; thus we need to replicate it with unnatural means.

Little lighting is still lighting.

This goes out to all those low budget producers who will somehow read the above comment, and then in our next meeting, pull it up and say "look, Roger Deakins said that you don't need lights with the Alexa" ... :)

As the example given in the article stated very little light was used, I'd say this is an example of the rare time when natural light in their environment worked.
 
Film is still superior to me because of how it looks. Digital will never be able to match that.

You're right... I just love that jitter from the sprocket hole wear on the typical film projector that is in the typical theater, that along with film scratches, just give me that feeling that I'm viewing 'quality' material... well until they convert to digital presentation...

And I just love the fact that in the olden days, the film had about 4 or so generations of interneg/positive, mushing up any 'effective' resolution, along with making crappy masks for matte painted in scenery...

But what is really good about film is that it is really expensive(*), and therefore only a select few fight their way to becoming filmmakers... wait... that's what shunted me over to still photography... and because being a still photographer in So. Cal is sort of like being a guitar picker in Nashville... eventually lead out of the 'image making' industry altogether...

*Sure on a $200M budget 'film' is the least expensive item... right down there with toilet paper and production paper work... but on a 'no/low-budget' film, while may items can be negotiated to be 'gratis'... film and film processing can't... and of course... who packs around a Steenbeck to edit while sipping latte's at Starbucks...
 
And I just love the fact that in the olden days, the film had about 4 or so generations of interneg/positive, mushing up any 'effective' resolution

This is an excellent point. I can't remember where I read this now (the American Cinematographer Manual?), but they have done resolution studies on typical release prints. In most cases, the release prints would have quite a bit less resolution than a 2K digital projector... to say nothing of a good 4K projector. I don't want to be quoted out of context, so please double check my claim and do your own research, but I want to say that a typical release print was roughly on par with 720p video, at least as far as raw resolution is concerned. Obviously, it still had more latitude, was more pleasing to look at than 720p video output, and all of that. But a good DCI compliant digital projector probably shows you more of what was on the original film negative than a film release print does!
 
This goes out to all those low budget producers who will somehow read the above comment, and then in our next meeting, pull it up and say "look, Roger Deakins said that you don't need lights with the Alexa" ... :)

I WISH that was the conversations I was having... The last one I had was, "...But we don't need lights with our 60D"!!!
 
i told deakins to say that just to mess with peeps heads.

Nice one! That Deakster, he's such a joker! Wait till folks find out that the "Alexas" shooting Bond are actually hollowed out shells with Arri SR16s in them.

Arri has always been synonymous with "sense of humor, Bavarian style" to me - ever since I was given a gigantic ARRI lighting kit box with a tiny tiny handle as my student lighting kit for the semester and had to carry it like 10 blocks and up a flight of stairs to my apartment while all the other USC students who had cars laughed at me. Hohohoho! Arnold was always a bit serious, but Dr Richter - dude, you can't say "party" without saying Richter!

Sorry, back on topic: yah, film resolution usually ends up a little below 1080p by the time people get to check it out in the theaters. I know this because I'd always be pissed at how damn soft my titles were when I saw them on the screen. All that rendering wasted... Nowadays with digital projection, any little bit of aliasing shows up and I often have to render 4k.

On another note, film still has the best skin tones, in my opinion...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Film is still superior to me because of how it looks. Digital will never be able to match that.

Another quote from Deakins: "Sometimes I get annoyed with the garbage I hear about film vs. digital... Most of it is simply nostalgia and silly thinking."
 
I went and saw "In Time" and I have to say, I thought it looked very good. From the AC article, it says that they shot the flick at 1080p, but then cropped the image to get a wide screen aspect ratio, so the effective resolution was less than 1080. There is no issue with the films resolution, at all. Of course shooting with Zeiss Master Primes is sure to help. The whole film vs. digital argument is hardly relevant now, unless you are working on a project where the cost of film vs. digital is not an issue, and really, how many folks on this forum are in that position? All I ever wanted, from the digital video revolution when it hit in 1994, was a digital video editing system that i could use to decrease the cost of 16mm film editing. My plan was to use digital video to make some cash and set up a system so that I could make "Real" movies on Super 16mm film, and edit them digitally. Well, that ambition has changed. I recently purchased a Sony FS100, and I have to say that this is the first video camera that I would rather shoot with than shoot 16mm film. The low light capabilities of the FS100, along with the fantastic control of the image in the picture profiles make the camera a low/micro budget, guerrilla powerhouse. I can hardly fathom the capabilities of the Arri Alexa. I hate the thought of not shooting film again, but I have to face the realities of where I am in filmmaking. The thought that mainstream movies may soon be all shot digitally is a rather disheartening thought also... except for the fact that these movies will still be shot by visual artists like Roger Deakins ASC, BSC. The current state of the technology really is to the point where artists like Roger Deakins can use it to make images as good as, or better, then they are able to make on film. That is really the only quality point that matters.
 
I went and saw "In Time" and I have to say, I thought it looked very good. From the AC article, it says that they shot the flick at 1080p, but then cropped the image to get a wide screen aspect ratio, so the effective resolution was less than 1080. There is no issue with the films resolution, at all. Of course shooting with Zeiss Master Primes is sure to help.

I think the other issue that is not usually 'thought' of by people who toss out 1920x1080 (which is within a few percentage points of 2K... the current digital intermediate standard...), is that the high end cameras capture at better than 8 bits, or lossy compressed 8 bits... So, when one sees a 'smooth' gradient area, or edge 'feature' there is much more 'data depth' in those areas than with the lower end cameras. Heck 8 bit 'raw' output would 'look better' than the lossy compressed version. I think there's also some possibility for selecting a logrithmic representation with the higher end cameras, which also allows for a better 'human' perception of the image, and better matches film response.

From the tests that I've seen Barry Green do for several different camera brands, the step wedge looked pretty 'linear' for the most part when I graphed them... definitely no 'shoulder' or 'toe' type response curves...
 
I think the other issue that is not usually 'thought' of by people who toss out 1920x1080 (which is within a few percentage points of 2K... the current digital intermediate standard...), is that the high end cameras capture at better than 8 bits, or lossy compressed 8 bits... So, when one sees a 'smooth' gradient area, or edge 'feature' there is much more 'data depth' in those areas than with the lower end cameras. Heck 8 bit 'raw' output would 'look better' than the lossy compressed version. I think there's also some possibility for selecting a logrithmic representation with the higher end cameras, which also allows for a better 'human' perception of the image, and better matches film response.

From the tests that I've seen Barry Green do for several different camera brands, the step wedge looked pretty 'linear' for the most part when I graphed them... definitely no 'shoulder' or 'toe' type response curves...

This is an interesting issue to bring up. Compression plays a huge factor in the look of footage: look at the GH2 vs. the hacked version. The GOP3 and GOP1 hacks look much more "filmic" to me because of the way they handle motion as opposed to the standard way H264 compresses the frames.

That being said, the new Canon C300 is 8bit 50mbps (though in a very effective codec) and the footage coming out looks great (as far as I know it has internal 4K 4:4:4 processing though, which would help, lol)
 
This is an interesting issue to bring up. Compression plays a huge factor in the look of footage: look at the GH2 vs. the hacked version. The GOP3 and GOP1 hacks look much more "filmic" to me because of the way they handle motion as opposed to the standard way H264 compresses the frames.

That being said, the new Canon C300 is 8bit 50mbps (though in a very effective codec) and the footage coming out looks great (as far as I know it has internal 4K 4:4:4 processing though, which would help, lol)

The internal processing is not 4k, it's 1080p. They build the 1080p right from the sensor, each pixel uses 1 red, 1 blue, and 2 greens and that gets used as an RGB pixel.
 
To clarify to those reading this and as an preemptive strike against, I must clarify that very little lighting is in context of Roger Deakin's work. This does not mean he's pumping ISO and shooting wide open with no-lighting or 1k's. It likely means he's just not having to put twelve 18k's on condors.

Point being, he is happy that he can use less light.... which means still more than most people on DVXuser get to use.

I say this because we don't JUST light to get exposure. We still need lights to make an image look how we want it. Only once in a very seldom lot, do we find natural lighting which conveys exactly what our artistic desires desire... and even then, with the changing nature of the world, our sun, and etc, we likely find that wonderful and perfect natural light is fleeting; thus we need to replicate it with unnatural means.

Little lighting is still lighting.

This goes out to all those low budget producers who will somehow read the above comment, and then in our next meeting, pull it up and say "look, Roger Deakins said that you don't need lights with the Alexa" ... :)

As the example given in the article stated very little light was used, I'd say this is an example of the rare time when natural light in their environment worked.

Yep yet another article or statement that will be taken out of context. I say go ahead to all filmmakers and stop using lighting - then I can say for sure my work will look better than yours.
 
I wonder how many trees we would destroy if we had to print out all the arguments, discussions and debates on the whole film vs digital thing.

I see it like this:

Film image: =================
Digital image: ==============

Practicality (and cost factor) of shooting film: ==
Practicality (and cost factor) of shooting digital: ============

Now fight, I mean choose.
 
Yep yet another article or statement that will be taken out of context. I say go ahead to all filmmakers and stop using lighting - then I can say for sure my work will look better than yours.

Fine by me...

vlcsnap-2010-12-11-14h38m35s182.png
 
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