Data tape archive - anyone using SDLT, LTO, DLT?

We're making a commitment to LTO-3, even though the Mac software side of the solution is ill-defined at this point.

Quantum has announced that they are no longer interested in developing the SDLT line, which really only leaves LTO-3 as a IT tape format with a future. 400GB per tape is a big help, and anything less is too small for HD work of any significant size.

My only complaint is that enterprise-class solutions, like LTO-3, are not marketed to us in the video community. If Quantum would WAKE UP and realize there is huge market and need for this, it would create a more stable solution for all of us, not unlike how the overwhelming popularity of BetacamSP made Beta a 'safe' format for all of us, for decades.

I actually have a "slide-rule" calculator made by Quantum that lists video file types and tape types and cross-references them to Quantum products, so *someone* in Quantum gets the idea, but I've had numerous conversations with Quantum sales reps that have no clue at all about the need for storage at video companies. Not one of them has even suggested the "-A" model LTO product that specifically retains and catalogs P2-centric MXF information.

So I just bought me an LTO-3 rack mount unit off EBay for $800, and I'll cobble something together, but it would be reassuring to know that 15 years from now, I can still pop that LTO tape in a then-current drive, and get all my MXF, QuickTime and .WAV files back.

Anyone from Rorke Data listening??

</rant>
 
I'm surprised by that SDLT announcement, as just 6 months ago (roughly) Quantum made a PR effort surrounding Turner Networks decision to go with SDLT 600A units for all their archival. It strikes me that the 600A (or 300A, I think, is the companion "A" unit) is a safe way to go, given Turner's decision. But these are impossible to find used, and new they're about $6700!
Your used LTO-3 route is my current #1 path, but I've still questions like;
- is the tape "portable" - that is, can you pop it in any LTO-3 drive on another system, and retrieve the file list & data?
-related, is the software and/or archive data cross-platform? could a tape written on Mac be read on PC?
-is it easy & safe to read/write additions to a tape? store 60GB at a time, let's say
-what platform/software are you using?
-what else didn't I know enough about to ask?
 
FWIW, here's the link to that Quantum news from August.

With regards to portability, there is no reason I know of why LTO would be any different than, say, DLT, which we've all used for years. As long as the software is there to read/write the contents, it should be no different. Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance, but this is why we're jumping in, and sorting out the details as we go. We need a solution NOW, and this is the best we've gotten. And LTO is based on an open standard, unlike DLT, so there are market drivers that make LTO interesting in that respect as well.

BTW, the current plan is to try Dantz's Retrospect Backup on OSX Server 10.4

Maybe if Apple and *HP* partner on their Ultrium line of LTO drives...
 
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I just invested in a Tandberg LTO-3 & I'm archiving straight from my Power mac G5 using the EMC Retrospect software to the LTO-3. i think its the best solution so far if u are running a couple of big projects. I tried the HDD archival solution but I find it very wasteful having stacks of expensive HDD in boxes.
 
Scary, too, thinking of those drives just waiting to "hiccup" on power-up...
Thanks for the replies... I'm looking for a used LTO3 on eBay now.
 
D3!?! That old Panasonic D2 competitor? (if I remember my decks) LOL - I had one of those on demo back in... umm.... '95 I think. Had it alongside D2 & 1" VTRs. When editing, tell the machines to cue up to preroll, and all would zip to the cue. EXCEPT the D3 deck - that one would crank up to 60X shuttle speed, fly RIGHT PAST the cuepoint, slow down, turn around, crank back up to 60X, fly RIGHT PAST the cuepoint in the other direction.... repeat a few times, and it'd get there. Lol.. wonder if they ever fixed the ballistics on that? (gag was that shuttle speed was a feature!)

Anyway, /old mode/off/ , that's good to hear about BCC & LTO.... makes me feel safer.
 
"the current plan is to try Dantz's Retrospect Backup on OSX Server 10.4"

Change of plans...

I wasn't terribly happy with what I was getting out of that combination, so I've tried the evaluation software from a company called BakBone. I installed it on a Windows machine, and the nice thing is that it will backup files from all over the network - Mac and PC both, and write it all to LTO-3 tape. The install itself was a breeze, but using it for the first time took a little time. But now it's click-click-click, go home, and it's done before I put the little one to sleep. Seems to scale well from one-person shop to large enterprise. Disclaimers apply (I don't work for them, but they seem to make a nice product).
 
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At the moment we just keep buying Terrabyte drives and taking a "lets see what happens" approach. We have a RED ONE arriving next month so our data requirements are going to go through the roof.

One consideration could be Dual Layer Blue Ray. You could dump 1 32gb card and some on to one of these, though its still a rather cumbersome and time consuming method.
 
I'm with you on the "lets see what happens" approach. We buy two terrabyte drives per project. One to work off of one as backup. For little ones (jobs) we edit fast and get them out the door. For the jobs that take time we backup on externals and pray...I know this is going to sound crazy but we've had great luck with Lacie drives even though they are overpriced casings........
 
EditingFX said:
Bcol - was it something about Retrospect you didn't like? Or Server, or...?
Click to expand...

I suppose it wasn't any one thing, but the configuration didn't seem reliable enough, and I'm concerned that EMC might end-of-life Retrospect at any time.

I wish Apple or *any* of the major vendors were interested in marketing to the film and TV space, but it seems all the money is in big corporate America (hospitals, universities, Fortune 1K) and the entirety of our industry doesn't warrant a second look.

Recently I received an email from a data backup and archive vendor, and after begging them to consider the market as a whole, their C-suite response was basically, "too small, too expensive to establish a presence."
 
Just heard from an associate that on a recent MacBreak podcast, the IT guy in attendance put a HUGE diss on tape-based enterprise backup systems. Said that in his personal experience, something like 50-75% of tapes he'd tried to retrieve data from had issues.
Hearing that put a big damper on my hots to move to data tape archival....
 
EditingFX said:
Just heard from an associate that on a recent MacBreak podcast, the IT guy in attendance put a HUGE diss on tape-based enterprise backup systems. Said that in his personal experience, something like 50-75% of tapes he'd tried to retrieve data from had issues.
Hearing that put a big damper on my hots to move to data tape archival....
Click to expand...

I wish I could add to this but have no experience in the MAC area (well, since 1983 that is . . .).

Regarding tape: I've been using LTO2, then shortly thereafter LTO3, since April '06. I've yet to lose a frame or had any issues (on a pc).

Best.
 
The types of project I do, like 2 hour music performance with two cams or action sports events and titles, my projects being ended up 300GB.

It would take too long to make backups and retrieving, so I gave up on tapes for now (I had adopted up to AIT2) and just buy hard drives.

I made a removable HD system with Enhanced Tech's chassis (4 bay) and firewire backplanes, so I have both banks with two bays working as hardware mirrored drive to make back up with firewire 800 connection, so I can have two projects load with RAID1 protection which gives me around 70MB/sec transferring rate.

Hard to beat the speed and getting automatic backup on the second drive.

Only problem would be the cost, 500GB backup with one extra copy would cost $300.

Also, I tested the Quantum GoVault HD cartridges. It works okay although it works only with FAT32 format. It is too bad that they only go up to 120GB which would be okay for audio projects but too small for video projects (it's only upto 120GB max because it uses 2.5" drive inside).
 
LTO4 Ultrium archive - a fully working solution on MAC OSX 10.5!!

LTO4 Ultrium archive - a fully working solution on MAC OSX 10.5!!

EditingFX said:
Want to find the most cost-effective route to archive onto data tape from OSX.
Click to expand...
Yes there is a very very good working solution with the following configuration. Search the REDUSER.NET forums for a large discussion on this.

I have this working now.

OK heres the BEST working solution on MAC OSX with a MACPRO.

  • ATTOTECH EXPRESSSAS HBA - I use an R380. ATTOis supported on OSX and has the drivers and firmware management for  MACOSX. Any ATTO TECH EXPRESSAS HBA will work. You want one with at least one external connector that takes an SFF-8088 connector. A simple SAS HBA is fine (no RAID).
  • LTO4 Utrium SAS tape drives: Only use either the HP HH desktop 1760 orthe HP Full Height 1840. THese ABSOLUTELY work. I would highly recommend the HP FULL HEIGHT 1840. It is a true workhorse and it very quite compared to the little brother HP 1760 HH desktop and much much quieter than the quantum
  • archive software for OSX native .app: Tolisgroups BRU-LE and soon BRU-PE (producers edition for us creative types!)
  • some Ultrium LTO4 data tapes (800GB native)
  • an interface cable mini-sas SFF-8088 to SFF-8088
  • ... thats it!

DOs:
  • DO use HP LTO4 Ultrium SAS desktop tape drives models 1760 (the Half height) or the model 1840 FULL Height (my favourite). I have all these tape drives at my disposal. :)
  • do the above and use HP and use ATTOTECH EXPRESSS HBAS (and RAID HBAs) / These are fully supported on  MAC OSX 10.5.6 including configuration and management software .apps. In addition there seems to be no limit (well there is) to the size of the TAPE dATA BLOCK SIZE (aka bufsize | blksize). For example, I use a 2MB(2048 KB) block size for all my DVCPROHD essence and also P2 objects from the cards. The ATTO EXPRESS SAS via TOLISGROUPS BRU PE (the UI and the CLI) I have blocksizes of up to 16MB! NO real performance gain on and around 2MB/4MB for archive.
  • do use TOLISGROUP BRU-PE -in beta now. get a demo of the BRU-LE.app ... it is a standalone native  MAC OSX applications that doesnt require any other server.. It even works on old  Powerbooks with USB DAT tape drives! MACPRO data rates for archive with LARGE objects with above exceed 110/115MBsec UNCOMPRESSED! (uncompressible by the tape drive logic As is our DVCPROHD content) measured with disk access from IOSTAT and activity_monitor.app etc.

absolute DON'Ts
  • don't use QUANTUM TC-L2B4n HH SAS ULTRIUM LTO4 desktop tape drive because it is incompatible with ATTOTECH EXPRESSAS HBA's and other Apple supported SAS HBA (host buss adapters). QUANTUM tape drive is very noisy and mechanical klunky and makes a real labouring sound when reading long objects (works ok though) compared to the HP tape drives I have here. Quantum has an out of spec issue with LTO4 / SAS interface that they have acknowledged privately ( I have support emails after nagging them heaps for months) .. so dont get caught like I did!
  • DONT use other HBAs like LSI LOGIC unless you are caught out after you have bought a Quantum tape drive etc and not an HP SAS LTO4 tape drive. However The LSI HBA that does work with the QUANTUM tape drive in a MACPRO is the LSI SAS3442E-R PCI (external connector) and its internal connector brother. There is NO SUPPORT for OSX by LSI so unless you have a redmond windah's XP system , linux , solaris etc. you are really on your own. (I have also an LSI SAS3442E-R HBA in slot 4 of my MACpro 2007 model. = so that I could get my QUANTUM SAS LTO4 sas tape drive finally working..no help from Quantum on this. Quantum tape drive support is certainly dreadful especially for a MAC OSX user.
  • on  OSX ARECA and HIGHPOINT SAS PCI-E HBA cards dont seem to work at all with Quantum or HP tape drives on a MACPRO. ANyone who has had success - please post. Rumours that HIGHPOINT or Areca may support these tape drives soon. No idea of Adaptec etc.. no idea...
  • use blocksizes over 1024KB (1MB) with an LSI SAS3442E-R PCI and your tape drive. Anything greater will LOCK up you MAC PRO instantly. No diags for this as this is THAT screen that tells you to POWER REcyclE the MAC PRO. . Its a bugger BTW.. all work is lost.
  • dont use EMC's RETROSPECT.. especially the latest one announced at CES 2009. Rumours are that is has lousy support (no support yet?) if any for new data tape drives. Its also very clumsy and kind of back in the 1990's and the data rates are lousy too.
  • there are other  MACOSX CLIENT software for archive/recall however many of them need a LINIX server to work. I just want OSX so I went with TOLISGROUP and it is excellent!

PRICING: varies by geo. I'm in Hong Kong however I purchased all my stuff form the USA costs are roughly:
  • LTO4 SAS desktop tape drives - $USD2500-$USD3200. THese are self contained and with a powersupply and fan. Be careful NOT to order an INTERNAL LTO4 ULTRIUM tape drive that only has the tape transport. You'll need to mount it .. too much trouble for me. THese apear cheaper.. Look for a DESKTOP external SAS Ultrium LTO4 tape drive. I purchased mine from DIGITAPE in the usa in the usa because they ship internationally. http://www.digitape.com
  • PCIE SAS HBAs - as low ast $USD150 to $USD1000 (RAID CARD). Again look at the ATTOTECH expresssas becaus ethese absoutley work fine and are fully configurable from  MACOSX. I purchased mine from Other World computing (OWC) in the usa because they ship internationally. http://www.digitape.com LSI SAS cards tat are unsupported from OSX (and they luckily work because of stuff in the OSX kernal), are around $USD300+. I use the LSI LOGIC SAS3442E-R PCIE in SLOT 4. get these anywhere.
  • minisas SFF-8088 to SFF8088 interface cable may not come with tape drive. Depends on the bundle. This is about $HK550 | €55 or about $USD65+ for a 1metre (1m) length. You can get them cheaper. I purchased this locally in Hong Kong (Kowloon Bay)
  • lto4 Ultrium DATA tapes: use HP C7974A or SONY ones. Source them from various places in lots of 10 for say $USD49 each or less now. - I purchased mine from DIGITAPE in the usa. http://www.digitape.com
  • SOFTWARE: Tolisgroups BRU-LE and BRU-PE - request this from TOLISGROUP.

Here are some urls with people who have such systems working on  MAC OSX systems right now. Some of these thread are more than 20 pages long but are very good reading. So take your time before making the plunge. Once you do you will really like it over loads of spinning ready to crap out cheap SATA/PATA disk.


HBA PCIE SLOTS in the 2007 MACPRO. I believe no issue for MACPRO 2008 version as the PCIE slots configs ar automatic?
  • MACPRO 2007 users refer to the Expansion Slot Utiity.app in /system/library/CoreServices/Expansion Slot Utility.app. BTW it seems really broejn in MAC OSX 10.5.6.. any clues?
  • on this MACPRO 2008 8 core I use the second configuration for my HBAs as (x16,x1,x4,x4). If you have a encoder card like an AJA KONA and youhave a dedicated HBA for your single HP tape SAS LTO4 Ultrium desktop tape drive, hen you can use a x1 slot as there is plenty of bandwidth for a single SAS tape drive. As usual it varies to taste.
  • you van easily get way with the HBA dedicated only to a SAS LTO4 Ultrium tape drivein a 1X lane slot. It DOEs work fine however I thin the LSI SAS3442-E in a 1x slot i HBA only mode is slower than the ATTOTECJ R380 (with a single tape drive n the end of it).
  • ATTO EXPRESSAS R380 in SLOT3 as a (x4 lane) using configuration02 . In slot 4 is get way way too hot as it sits underneath two very warm internal 7200RPM 1TB DDMs. I moved it after errors with very large amounts and hours (TB's ) of file activity. YOu could put the HBA only flavour in SLot 4 (x8) and it would be fine.
  • LSI LOGIC SAS3442E-R PCIE in SLOT4 (top most) at (x4) using configuration 2

Feel free to PM me if you want some more detail.

I post this detail because I hope to help anyone interested NOTto go down the very frustrating path of this. THe solution I have pointed out at the frot of this post works 101% gurannteed on a MACPRO. I assume.. I say assume t will work ok on a POWERMAC G5 as long at the PCIE slot/HBA are ok.

HTH
W
HK
 
using LTO on MAC for archiving? - yep!

using LTO on MAC for archiving? - yep!

EditingFX said:
Just heard from an associate that on a recent MacBreak podcast, the IT guy in attendance put a HUGE diss on tape-based enterprise backup systems. Said that in his personal experience, something like 50-75% of tapes he'd tried to retrieve data from had issues.
Hearing that put a big damper on my hots to move to data tape archival....
Click to expand...

dont mean to steal the thread.. but

YEs I used to hear that as well from guys that used Quantum DLT formats (these were notoriously errors prone in that as is stated 40-50% of data cold not be read back). Hence Quantums (and others) uses of LTO Ultrium now days. Also exabyte and so on.

Also the SONY helical scan AIT format has had a bad run over the years. Are any people still using SONY SAIT??? :huh:

I guess if the standard I.T. industry that archives and backsup up the BANKS, INsurances, financial, manufacturing and scientific, areospace use LTO ULTRUM tape and the super expensive high end enterprise tape drives from IBM (3592, MAgstar, ) STK t10K, 9940B, etc etc than tape as a media is very stable and cheap to make multiple instances when compared to power hungry unreliable el cheapo SATA2/PATA external firewire disks.... or what ever is cheap these days, The chances of pulling any of 20 of these disk up in 1 year after nouse and =having ALL them work is not good. (my story later on losing 650GB of P2 footage on a Le Cie bigdisk.. twice!!!).

HOwever as the single 2TB DDMS (disk drivemodules) approah that are SATA2/# that are under $USd100 thene there might be a case for loads of disks.

Teh notion of spinning up disks when neede like the COPAN guys seems to have faded out of favour this past 2008. SO thatis nt athe longterm,.

SSD .long way to go.

So tape media when migrated over time is still very reiable and cheap.

REally it is worth a look if you have 100's of hours f DVCproHD you want to keep around and move or workon in years to come.

I use a fully working syste of LTO4 ULTRIUM tape drive and archive software on my MACPRO. Works great. I have a laods ofmaterial in my archive from old stuff fomr 1988 video8, vhs, hi8 to DV, DV, DVCPROHD , DVCPRO50, even horrid HDV as dat aforats on my TO ULTRIUM archive.

I use a MAM system called CATDV (squarebox.uk) to maintain it with the use of proxies.

Anyway data tape is still wort a look especially with ULTRIUM LTO5 at end of this year 2009 with 240B uncompressed and 1.6TB in a package that will be under $USD50 a this time.

Oh and disk arrays? Yeah I have two external SAS DISK arrays here each only 4TB but blisteringly fast (450MB/sec). Do I really RAID these? Well no not anymore. I used to have a 8 x DDM rank with RAID5 rotating parity and lesser data rates) until I took a hit one day on the HBA. I lost 3 of the 8 ddms in the rank!. So RAID 3 nor RAID 5 nor RAID 6 (especially) would save the content? bye bye content??? Well normally yes BUT luckilly I had an archive of all the stuff only LTO ULTRIUM tape drives and all I had to do was to restore/recall it .. all 6TB.

THese days I wont risk it losing content for the sake of el cheapo spinning disk. Disk is for fast access and transience... tape is for archieving until something better comes along.

food for thought.
hth
warwick'
HK
 
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