Dangerous post that got me banned on other site

J

John Trent

Well-known member
The Adam Wilt DV.com Texas Shootout article mentioned the JVC HD100 sticks for six frames at a time in areas where leaves, reeds, & grass were moving in the wind. This was brought up at another forum where the questioner was told that the community were "USERS who didn't have to defend the camera because they were too busy having fun and making money..." I doubt I'm allowed to print which forum, but there are only two that use animals for their sites and it ain't the Cow. I posted the following and they removed it, then four days later banned me, both without explanation:

I agree with --. I want to know if others are seeing the "six-frame stick"? And, I don't see what the problem is in asking.

This community had a "let's bury our head in the sand" attitude about the SSE problem. I was glad that it was talked about endlessly because JVC admitted there was a problem and fixed it. Does anyone think that, if we don't talk about the "six-frame stick" that it will EVER be fixed?

This is cutting edge technology and there will be problems with it. I think a - "there's a problem, let's fix it", attitude is much better than defensive posturing, and it's THE ONLY WAY problems are solved.

I think the JVC has the best picture and I'm thinking of buying one. I like that they've improved quality control, and improved their camera.

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I did remove the last line concerning the alleged noise problem in a Panasonic cam because I'm afraid of repercussions here. It's not bad... I'm just gunshy.

So, anybody here have any information about the "six frame stick"? And about my post, could anybody tell me where I crossed the line, because I don't see what all the fuss is about, and THEY won't even answer my emails inquiring about this matter and how long my banishment is? Does anybody here, know how long banishment usually lasts over there? Thanks.
 
Speak up about the alleged noise problem. I've not experienced or heard of it?

There aren't any witch hunts (to my knowledge) going on here at DVXuser, if it's unsubstantiated people will probably just ignore you than have you drawn and quartered.
 
Yardsale said:
Speak up about the alleged noise problem. I've not experienced or heard of it?

There aren't any witch hunts (to my knowledge) going on here at DVXuser, if it's unsubstantiated people will probably just ignore you than have you drawn and quartered.
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Don't be too sure :). There's no noise issue with the HVX, at least the PAL model. He might be talking about the macroblocking issue that was discussed a while ago. This IMHO is more a problem with bad withe balance and color levels exceeding acceptable values.

I shot too much HVX footage at night and am more than pleased!
 
John, Im an HD100 owner, I wanna know more details, did u say the cam gets stuck sometimes with 6 frames? like,in drop outs? I haven't encountered it mine. Do you know more about this problem?
 
We're not here to trash or second-guess other forums; what they did is up to them, not us.

Now, for the 6-frame problem itself, if you want to discuss that, feel free.
 
I think this is the link to Wilt's article. DV.com won't load up for me right now. You do have to sign up.
http://dv.com/features/features_item.jhtml?category=Archive&articleId=189 500064

I've seen several people on other forums say they've seen the "6 frame stick", including a fellow in Germany. Like I said, it shows up in areas of the frame where small detail is moving, like leaves, grass and I'm guessing water. It grabs or "sticks" freezing up the motion for 6 frames at a time. A lot of people say they don't see it but I do wonder if they just don't want to see it. The bigger the tv screen the more noticeable it is, I suppose.

As far as the HVX noise problem. Please just look for the threads here about it. I don't want John Hudson to ban me too.

And I thank the people here, who let my post go up and didn't edit it.
 
As long as what you're saying is constructive, I think you'll find that you have a lot of freedom here.
 
John,

We are still waiting for the m2t's Adam and the crew shot. No-one else complains or ever mentions this phenomenon (which is an mpeg motion estimation error) because it is so minute that only a very trained eye could detect it. Even then the footage typically has to be slowed down and scaled up in order to ever see it plainly.

S.Noe
 
It's *not* an issue of the entire frame freezing up for six frames (like a Sony HDV dropout). JVC doesn't do that.

What Adam's talking about is where small fine motion falls below the threshhold of the motion algorithms, so the codec doesn't bother to move the object. It's a codec issue, and only a codec issue. Instead of fine blades of grass or fine reeds smoothly blowing in the wind and gently rocking back and forth, he's saying that they'll stay put for six frames, then leap to the other position for six frames. The codec doesn't bother to render the fine steps of motion between.

As Stephen said, it's minor, and other than one guy on DVInfo pointing out the guitar footage thing, I've never seen anyone complain about it. Adam is extraordinary, a Princeton-graduate engineer, and he sees things like this. Average users apparently don't, or we'd see more posts about it. You're not seeing posts about it because nobody's noticing it.
 
yes.. Adam is not normal. he is a super human, cut from the same cloth as Barry, and those guys see stuff like interlacing on interlaced tvs.
 
stephenlnoe said:
John,

We are still waiting for the m2t's Adam and the crew shot. No-one else complains or ever mentions this phenomenon (which is an mpeg motion estimation error) because it is so minute that only a very trained eye could detect it. Even then the footage typically has to be slowed down and scaled up in order to ever see it plainly.

S.Noe
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According to a fellow named Uli, who did a german shootout, it shows up where blocking (in all the cameras) shows up - in the low-contrast, low detail areas, in dark images.

I have read a few other people say they noticed the "six frame stick".

I do wonder what framing a whole field of tall grass blowing in the wind would show? I worry about a bunch of little "sticking" areas through out the framed composition.

But if it has to be slowed down and scaled up to see it, I guess I can stop worrying about it. The way I understand things, frame by frame analysis of HDV is always going to show artifacts. As long as it doesn't show to the eye at normal running speed, that's as good as it gets. Thanks, Stephen. Barry. Jarred. Thanks, guys. Wish it could've been like this at the other forum.
 
Barry_Green said:
Adam is extraordinary, a Princeton-graduate engineer, and he sees things like this.
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For some of the foreign born membership, Princeton University is one of the finest schools in the America. To give you an idea, they use to have a Professor there, his name was Einstein.
 
I own an HD100 and have no idea what this six-frame stick thing is, despite spending several hours looking for it. I read in another forum that it may be related to the camera's motion smoothing function, which I never use. The camera's codec seems to work flawlessly, to my layman's eye.
 
Bob Diesso said:
I own an HD100 and have no idea what this six-frame stick thing is, despite spending several hours looking for it. I read in another forum that it may be related to the camera's motion smoothing function, which I never use. The camera's codec seems to work flawlessly, to my layman's eye.
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Mine to.

I have filmed some foliage and flowers for backdrops and haven't noticed this 6 frame sticky thing.

Its a great camera.:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
To be honest I am sure you would have to have Adam Wilts eye and expertise for this to be an issue. I have seen several hours of HD100 footage blown up to 35mm here in Japan and I have thought nothing but wonderful dreamy thoughts.
 
Hhmmm... I did notice this skip. mostly in my love walks very minor though wasn't sure what was triggering it.

I thought it was drop outs on the minidv tape. It would explain the out of sync B roll I get with my Sony. The Jvc clips tend to be shorter I end up having to time stretch to make them match sometimes which causes editing headaches especially with the audio.

HDV really isn't ready yet I guess...but hey I'm making money..and nobody notices it in a wedding video. hehe

The good thing is the serious work I do goes uncompressed through the analog outs of both the HD100 and Z1U to a V440hd switcher and onto either a DSR 45 recorder at 480i (HD input downscaled to SD 480i looks great for SD) or unto a computer with decklink extreme card in it.
 
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