D800 Workflow

md673

md673

Member
Hey guys, I've been shooting on my D800 for about a week now and I'm curious how everyone is handling the post production. Ultimately I'll probably end up getting an external recorder, but for now I'm using the internal codec. Premiere reads the files no problem, but it's not playing them back too well. What's everyone else doing? Converting to ProRes(or similar codec) before editing?
 
According to the specs, the internal codec is H.264/MPEG 4 AVC. Not sure if that means .MTS AVCHD files or .MOV H.264 files, but either way you can edit natively, in some NLE's (might need to rewrap if AVCHD) but it can be slow editing depending on the computer. Transcoding to ProRes or DNxHD will have less strain on the processor, so it should be able to be edited on most systems.

The workflow I'm the most interested in is if you record via external recorder and need to remove the pulldown in post. Rumor is the D800 implements a nonstandard 2:2:2:4 pulldown.
 
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They're .MOV H.264 files, and from what I understand some external recorders can successfully remove the pulldown. I think it has to do with the auto communication between the devices over HDMI. For example, my panasonic plasma TV sees the output as progressive, but my SmallHD DP4 sees the same signal as interlaced.
 
md673 said:
They're .MOV H.264 files, and from what I understand some external recorders can successfully remove the pulldown. I think it has to do with the auto communication between the devices over HDMI. For example, my panasonic plasma TV sees the output as progressive, but my SmallHD DP4 sees the same signal as interlaced.
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Yes apparently the Ninja will remove the pulldown. I own a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 and plan to record DNxHD (or ProRes if they update the firmware to do so). So far the The Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 doesn't remove pulldown, so a good post workflow is needed for those of us with the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2. The Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 is currently the least expensive external recorder, so a lot of people have it or will have it one the rumored ProRes firmware update is released. They could still release a firmware that removes pulldown, but in case that doesn't happen I think a list of software that can remove 2:2:2:4 pulldown would be a good thing for everyone.
 
Just an FYI, but a little program called 5DtoRGB helped clean up some compression-induced blockiness on my D7000 files. Gave gradients a noticeably smoother appearance, especially when heavily graded in post. Should help with the D800 files, too. It can output to multiple versions of ProRes, and Avid DNxHD, and can reverse a standard flat curve in the process if needed. There are a few different versions out there, and each version seems to have slightly different features enabled.

http://rarevision.com/5dtorgb/
 
I can vouch for 5DtoRGB as well. It would be great for the native files. I used it with my AF100, GH2, 5D, 7D, and 60D footage. It's all I use to transcode. The only negative is the slow transcode times.
 
No reason it shouldn't. It's not listed to work with the D7000, but it does. It even works with my GoPro2, though to a much lesser effect since you can't control the image beyond center or spot metering.
 
Brian@202020 said:
Yes apparently the Ninja will remove the pulldown.
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Hmmm... From the Atomos Knowledge Base: The Ninja doesn’t have pulldown removal, so any footage containing a 3:2 pulldown will need to be run through software to retrieve the original progressive footage. With 2:2 pulldown add to a Progressive project and most NLE's will do the 2:2 pulldown removal

Another Atomos KB page: There is a lot of information about the 2:3/3:2 pulldown available so please feel free to look this up. To reverse this process can be done in software or in hardware. The Ninja will record the 60i signal with the pulldown still in the stream and this will have to done in software to take it back to 24P for editing in a 24P timeline.

Perhaps Brian is referring to a future Ninja firmware release when he writes "will" rather than "does".

-- Bob Elkind
 
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As Bob has pointed out "future Ninja firmware". The current Firmware 2.1 was designed around the D4. Atomos have discovered that the D800 outputs a different Live Stream to the D4 so they are working on a firmware update for the D800 a present.
 
Stephenh said:
The current Firmware 2.1 was designed around the D4. Atomos have discovered that the D800 outputs a different Live Stream to the D4 so they are working on a firmware update for the D800 a present.
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From where did you hear this, if I may be so nosy as to ask?

-- Bob Elkind
 
eteam said:
Hmmm... From the Atomos Knowledge Base: The Ninja doesn’t have pulldown removal, so any footage containing a 3:2 pulldown will need to be run through software to retrieve the original progressive footage. With 2:2 pulldown add to a Progressive project and most NLE's will do the 2:2 pulldown removal

Another Atomos KB page: There is a lot of information about the 2:3/3:2 pulldown available so please feel free to look this up. To reverse this process can be done in software or in hardware. The Ninja will record the 60i signal with the pulldown still in the stream and this will have to done in software to take it back to 24P for editing in a 24P timeline.

Perhaps Brian is referring to a future Ninja firmware release when he writes "will" rather than "does".

-- Bob Elkind
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Ok, I don't have a Ninja. I thought it was already out.
 
Using 5DtoRGB right now, and man, this thing is slow. I'm guessing the quality comes at a price.
 
eteam said:
From where did you hear this, if I may be so nosy as to ask?

-- Bob Elkind
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Have to careful here! The horses mouth. It appears the D4 and D800 do not output the exact same Live Stream. Atomos are doing an update to there firmware to resolve the issues with the D800. I believe there are no issues with the D4 and Ninja.
 
An email from Atomos:

There has been a lot of talk on forums about what is going in/out of recorders/Nikon camera's. Our initial testing was all done with the Nikon D4 and over the last week it does appear that the D4 and D800 do have a difference in output . The issue relates to the field ordering of the 1080 progressive output of the D800 when used with an external recorder like the Ninja. This issue was not present on then D4 with which we developed, this is a simple & easy to correct issue, rest assured we are working very closely with Nikon to rectify this problem.
There have been some say the Auto output of D800 with no media outputs a full 24p signal which we are looking to support this with the Ninja and will gladly keep you updated of the progress.
So far only reports of this have been form other places other than Nikon so we are speaking with them direct about this.
 
If the Nikon D800 in Auto Mode with no cards inserted actually outputs a pure 24p stream, that would be very impressive. I am waiting for Atomos to release the firmware field ordering update for the D800 and I am off to the store. To eventually be able to do 24p pure would be the icing on the cake, though I don't know how it would interface with existing equipment or how it would handle that sort of stream. Maybe Bob (eteam) can enlighten us.
 
Stephenh said:
If the Nikon D800 in Auto Mode with no cards inserted actually outputs a pure 24p stream, that would be very impressive. I am waiting for Atomos to release the firmware field ordering update for the D800 and I am off to the store. To eventually be able to do 24p pure would be the icing on the cake, though I don't know how it would interface with existing equipment or how it would handle that sort of stream. Maybe Bob (eteam) can enlighten us.
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This subject has been a complete mess, and Atomos has been at the forefront of confusing and misleading leaks/emails/FAQs/Knowledge Base articles. The email quoted by Stuart U is entirely representative of what has gone wrong in this discussion, and I am more than willing and eager to dissemble the email.

Atomos email said:
...Our initial testing was all done with the Nikon D4 and over the last week it does appear that the D4 and D800 do have a difference in output . The issue relates to the field ordering of the 1080 progressive output of the D800 when used with an external recorder like the Ninja.
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The terms "field order" and "progressive output" do not apply to the same signal. Right?

The D4/D800 can (and may) convert 1080p video to a 1080i video output signal. In p25/30 to i50/60 conversion, a 2:2 pulldown is applied. The D4/D800 can start interlaced frames with either odd or even fields. Without specific clues or definition, the receiver has to guess in order to perform reverse pulldown (to de-interlace the received signal). The Atomos email suggests that the good folks on the D4 team didn't agree on a consistent pulldown scheme with the good folks on the D800 team, and anyone using products which rely on the D4/D800 pulldown scheme may be ... hosed.

Let's be clear: progressive video converted to interlaced video, with or without pulldown added, is no longer a progressive video signal -- despite the valiant efforts made by Atomos to suggest otherwise.

This issue was not present on then D4 with which we developed, this is a simple & easy to correct issue, rest assured we are working very closely with Nikon to rectify this problem.
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There are four options for Atomos, and for anyone in the same position as Atomos:

  1. The Monte Carlo approach -- make a guess on field ordering, and roughly half the time (i.e. with half the signal sources on the market) you will guess right.
  2. The clever workaround approach -- discern some differences (some clues) which distinguish D4 interlaced output from D800 interlaced output, add this additional logic to the receive logic, and pray to God that Nikon doesn't correct the differences between the D4 and D800 in a future Nikon firmware release.
  3. The add a user menu configuration option in Ninja workaround to explicitly select either D4 or D800 "input format" for interlaced signal. This is an weak workaround for rental gear, and for production houses with mixed D4 and D800 gear.
  4. The add p24/25/30 HDMI signal support solution, and avoid the mess of pulldown reversal. Of the four options, this is the clean solution (rather than a workaround or marketing explanation).

There have been some say the Auto output of D800 with no media outputs a full 24p signal which we are looking to support this with the Ninja and will gladly keep you updated of the progress.
So far only reports of this have been form other places other than Nikon so we are speaking with them direct about this.
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In these forums, we've read first-person reports from Jon Thorn of AJA that they have worked out the details -- with Nikon -- for supporting native p24/25/30 HDMI input from D4/D800. Progressive video stays progressive, and differences in field ordering are no longer an issue.

Nikon are not blame-free in this mess. A product specification should include enough specific details of input and output signals to allow the device to operate correctly with external devices, and Nikon clearly did not do this. If you are marketing your product as a video camera, you are obligated to specify the video output clearly and with minimally sufficient detail for interoperability. Furthermore, there are SMPTE/ITU telecine standards for conversion from progressive to interlaced video, and Nikon did not competently apply any of these standards consistently to both the D4 and D800.

Further complicating the matter are the not-so-clear distinctions Nikon make between various operating modes, each of which affects the HDMI output signal:
  • LIVE video (no memory cards inserted)
  • LIVE video (while recording to memory card)
  • anything else (e.g. playback from memory card of recorded video)

Nikon have shown their lack of experience in the video market. Atomos (and others, no doubt) have shown their willingness to prematurely issue cheerful emails and press releases and explanations with less than perfect clarity. This will all settle out in the next 3-4 months, and no-one should be surprised if all the players (including Nikon) follow up with a round of firmware updates to tidy up the rough edges. Atomos is justified in saying these interface problems are simple and easy to fix, once you properly understand the problems.

You don't need to be an expert in video or HDMI interfaces to interpret the conflicting and confusing statements made by some of the players in this business.

-- Bob Elkind
 
"Nikon are not blame-free in this mess. A product specification should include enough specific details of input and output signals to allow the device to operate correctly with external devices, and Nikon clearly did not do this."
maybe that because they really meant.... "Clean uncompressed HDMI output to a favorite monitor near you"
LOL. Of course Nikon muddied the waters.
 
Zephyrnoid said:
"Nikon are not blame-free in this mess. A product specification should include enough specific details of input and output signals to allow the device to operate correctly with external devices, and Nikon clearly did not do this."
maybe that because they really meant.... "Clean uncompressed HDMI output to a favorite monitor near you"
LOL. Of course Nikon muddied the waters.
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Though even here there are reports that some TV's are detecting it as interlaced and others as a progressive stream.

Thanks to Bob (eteam) for the enlightened version. I may just for go the Ninja until Atomos/Nikon settle in a universal solution for both the firmware/stream specification.

Steve.
 
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