CX350 vs DVX200?

sewolla said:
The topic of wired remotes is something that I spent some time on with a Panasonic engineer at NAB. This engineer said that yes, you can in fact use a LANC controller with the CX350. With that assurance from him, I placed an order for one, along with a Varizoom VZ Rock PZFII for Canon. Better cancel the order for that Varizoom.
I really need that ability as much of my work is done with cranes, etc. and I need the ability to control iris, etc. in those situations.
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The VariZoom VZ-Rock and VZ-Stealth (the LANC versions, not the Panasonic versions) do work with the CX350 and can remotely control zoom, focus, and start/stop recording. The only thing that isn't possible with these remotes is iris control.

As far as I know, the only way to remotely control iris on the camera currently is using the app.
 
As a side note - I plugged a LANC VZ-Rock into my CX350 and while it controlled the zoom, it did not control it well. You could creep but there was a large gap missing to faster zooming. So it jumped from very show to fast. Not anything I would want to use during recording. Hence my reasons for dismay.
 
Bassman2003 said:
As a side note - I plugged a LANC VZ-Rock into my CX350 and while it controlled the zoom, it did not control it well. You could creep but there was a large gap missing to faster zooming. So it jumped from very show to fast. Not anything I would want to use during recording. Hence my reasons for dismay.
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My experience is similar. This seems to be due to how the camera is responding to the LANC commands issued by the remote.

LANC is a digital protocol, and the LANC remote sends various commands (zoom, start recording, etc.) to the camera. There are 8 different zoom speed commands (or actually 16, 8 for zoom in and 8 for zoom out) that are used in the LANC protocol (http://www.boehmel.de/lanc):
  • 2800 - Zoom In speed 1 (slowest)
  • 2802 - Zoom In speed 2
  • 2804 - Zoom In speed 3
  • 2806 - Zoom In speed 4
  • 2808 - Zoom In speed 5
  • 280A - Zoom In speed 6
  • 280C - Zoom In speed 7
  • 280E - Zoom In speed 8 (fastest)

It seems like the VariZoom VZ-Rock maps these commands fairly evenly across the range of the zoom rocker (so 2800, the slowest zoom speed, is sent near the middle of the zoom rocker and 280E, the fastest zoom speed is sent when pressing the zoom rocker all the way down to the right). The problem seems to be that the middle zoom speeds in particular are too fast relative to the slowest zoom speeds.

Zoom speeds 1 and 2 (2800 and 2802) are very slow and allow for nice gradual zooms. But zoom speed 3 (2804) is significantly faster than zoom speed 2 (2802). And overall, there doesn't seem to be nearly enough variation in the middle of the zoom range. In particular speeds 3-6 all seem pretty similar in terms of zoom speed.

Other LANC cameras I have tried seem to have a much more even progression of zoom speed across the various zoom commands, which leads to a more gradual ramping of speed via the zoom controller. So it's not really the zoom controller that is at fault here. And Panasonic seems to have implemented the most common LANC commands with regard to zoom speed, it's just the mapping of commands to the actual zoom motor speeds that needs some tweaking.

Given, this information, I am hopeful that this is something that could be addressed via a firmware update. Similar to how Panasonic changed how the camera zoom servo responded to changes in the zoom ring, it seems like they could do something similar with how the camera responds to LANC commands from an external zoom controller.
 
I agree. This is not a Varizoom issue. I hope Panasonic will address this as it seems to have been forgotten about upon release of the camera. In this state the camera in unusable in a professional environment.
 
davedv said:
The problem seems to be that the middle zoom speeds in particular are too fast relative to the slowest zoom speeds.
.
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I use the VariZoom VZ-ROCK as well on the DVX200 and also experienced the jump in speed that you mention. The problem exists in the primary zoom lever on the camera as well. It's difficult to transition between speeds or ease into or out of a zoom.
 
kre57 said:
I use the VariZoom VZ-ROCK as well on the DVX200 and also experienced the jump in speed that you mention. The problem exists in the primary zoom lever on the camera as well. It's difficult to transition between speeds or ease into or out of a zoom.
Click to expand...

The Panasonic version of the VariZoom VZ-Rock (the VZ-Rock DVX or PZFI that uses two connectors) uses a totally different mechanism from the LANC version. The original Panasonic zoom controller uses a simple variable resistor, allowing in principle for continuous range of different zoom speeds depending on the current resistance of the zoom controller. There's some more description of how these older Panasonic zoom remotes worked in this PDF: http://www.beyondmonochrome.co.uk/main/Links_files/remote.pdf

The key point about the old Panasonic zoom controllers, is that since its not a digital protocol like LANC is, there aren't the 8 discrete zoom speed commands.

Now, of course it's still up to the camera to drive the zoom motor in a reasonable way in response to what is being read from the zoom controller input. So if the DVX200 has similar issues to the newer CX350 in this area, that further points to the camera's handling of the lens zoom servo as the likely cause of this behavior.
 
One other interesting thing about the LANC implementation on the CX350. It seems that the camera does actually respond to the LANC iris more open (code 2855) and iris more closed (code 2853) commands mentioned in the protocol description here: http://www.boehmel.de/lanc

Curiously, the camera seems to implement these commands backwards from what is described on that page (so the iris open command actually closes the shutter slightly, and the iris close command opens it). But these commands do actually allow for remote iris control.

Which means that there is a reasonably standard support for LANC iris control already in the camera. So if there is a LANC remote that implements these iris control commands there is a decent chance that it will work.
 
You can use the EVA1 handgrip as a remote for the cx350, to adjust the iris. Not really practical, as the EVA grip doesn't offer zoom, but I tried it just to see if it would work, and it did.
 
I am too busy right now to follow up on this issue but IS this seen as an issue from Panasonic's point of view? I have basically shelved a professional camera I have purchased because of the lack of rear zoom controller options/clarity and am kind of wondering if this will ever be "fixed"? Clearly the small number of controllers listed do not work properly as quite a few of us have tried a VZ-Rock and noticed the same erratic behavior.

Right now I am a bit sorry that I purchased the camera.
 
Thank you for the quick response Mitch. I have faith Panasonic will come to a solid resolution. The Image Stabilization on the PX270 took about nine months after release to really work properly, so I know this often comes with the territory.

If I could respectfully ask for an attempt to make existing controllers that many of us own with the Panasonic/LANC switch work with the camera. Manfrotto, Libec etc... They are nice controllers that were at least $150 each. They "sort of" work now and maybe with some effort they can work well. Thank you.
 
The Manfrotto MVR901EPLA remote is capable of controlling zoom, focus, and iris on the CX350. It's the first remote I've found so far that can control iris on the camera as well as zoom and focus:
https://www.manfrotto.us/pan-bar-remote-control-for-cameras-w-lanc

This remote includes a dial for adjusting the maximum zoom speed (the zoom rocker is still variable speed, up to the maximum speed set on the dial). Unfortunately though, you can't really control zoom and focus simultaneously. Since there is a switch on the side that sets whether the rocker controls zoom or focus, it's either one or the other at a time. Also the manual/autofocus button doesn't do anything (I think because the camera doesn't respond to this command).

The form factor is an integrated pan bar, so unless you are using a Manfrotto pan/tilt head, the rosette and screw size likely won't match, and you need a separate adapter piece that lets you clamp it to your tripod's built-in pan bar. It would be nice if Manfrotto offered an equivalent remote without the integrated pan bar. Because while they do make a similar standalone clamp-on device (MVR901ECLA), it has fewer features and does not include the iris control buttons.
 
Dave, have you tried this remote with the camera?

In my experience, the separate iris/focus controller that Varizoom makes for the Panasonic two plug system is the best way for live event usage. Having all of the controls only on one controller is just too much to do with your thumb which is very often engaged with zooming. I have the opinion many just do not get it. Shooting in a dark theater or being 22x telephoto on a speaker you do not have the luxury of fiddling around. I hope things turn positive in this regard for the CX350.
 
Yes, I have used that remote with the camera, although I have yet to shoot a live event using it, mostly due to the LANC zoom speed issue (which is really a camera problem rather than a remote problem).

I agree that having a separate zoom and focus controllers is the way to go. Still, this is probably the best remote I've found for the camera so far since it has iris control and can control focus with the rocker (rather than push buttons which most LANC remotes seem to have for focus control).

With two of the remotes, you could have one set to control zoom and a second one set to control focus. The problem of course is that the camera only has one LANC port. Manfrotto used to make a LANC splitter adapter that multiplexed the commands from two separate remotes to a single camera, but sadly it has been discontinued:
http://www.manfrotto.com.br/remote-control-splitter-box.html

I'm actually a little surprised that no one else makes a similar product as it could be used with LANC compatible cameras from Sony and Canon as well.
 
Thanks for your reply. So in effect, it does not work with the camera. (due to the zoom issues). It all or nothing to me. Hopefully splitters can work or new products are in the works that are not all on one piece of hardware. To be honest, I see this setup for filmmakers, not video folks so much.
 
I wouldn't say the remote is useless exactly. Since you can limit the maximum zoom speed with the dial, if you set the limit fairly low it to the slower zoom speeds you can avoid the jumpiness of the transition to the faster zoom speeds. The slower speeds are probably more useful for a lot of live zooms anyway with the fastest speeds better for re-framing. The fastest zoom speed available via LANC remotes is actually faster than the fastest speed available with the zoom rocker.

Ideally these kinds of workarounds wouldn't be necessary. It would be better if Panasonic just fixed the LANC implementation on the camera.

I've tried several different LANC zoom remotes from different manufacturers at this point and all of them exhibit the same issue. These same remotes work smoothly with Sony and Canon camcorders I have tried them with. It's pretty clearly an issue with how the camera is responding to the different LANC zoom speed commands, as I discovered when I sent each LANC zoom command to the camera individually. You can also see this pretty clearly by adjusting the zoom speed limit dial on the Manfrotto remote. For example if you set the zoom speed limit to about 50% (which presumably limits things to speeds 1-4), at the maximum extent of the zoom rocker it zooms about as fast as if the zoom speed limit is set to 100%. So zoom speed 4 is almost as fast as zoom speed 8, which is why things seem jumpy with full range zoom remotes.

The frustrating thing is that it really doesn't seem like this problem should be that hard to fix. Just requires the camera to map the LANC zoom speeds more evenly across the range of zoom motor drive speeds. New zoom remotes aren't even needed to have a workable solution. Just a camera firmware update and a LANC serial multiplexer to allow two remotes to share a single port.
 
Hello Everybody,
just seen this tread and please note that there is a much better Cam-remote for Panasonic and Canon/Sony available! Solving all mentioned problems! It is also a wireless version for sale.
Please look at:
http://digipin13.hr/en/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdZs3xLuyYU
I know, in the US it is not really known, because it comes from Europe... :-)
I use the DigiPin PaRe for my AGX200 and it works perfect. Much better than my VariZoom...
Hopefully this helps a bit.
 
Excalibur said:
Hello Everybody,
just seen this tread and please note that there is a much better Cam-remote for Panasonic and Canon/Sony available! Solving all mentioned problems! It is also a wireless version for sale.
Please look at:
http://digipin13.hr/en/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdZs3xLuyYU
I know, in the US it is not really known, because it comes from Europe... :-)
I use the DigiPin PaRe for my AGX200 and it works perfect. Much better than my VariZoom...
Hopefully this helps a bit.
Click to expand...

I believe the unit you linked to in the YouTube video is for other Panasonic cameras that have two input jacks for remote controllers. The CX350 utilizes a modified LANC protocol on a single plug. Do you have a product for that?
 
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