CS3e/CMIT/KMR81I/MKH60 or other ideas. -- Capturing the elusive bride audio

B

Black Bird

New member
We're adding to our audio capabilities we need some advice. We're opening ourselves to the gauntlet of doing weddings and feel that getting the best audio we can is very important. The Bride. The REAL challenge is getting good audio on the soft-spoken bride. As I understand it; a Vicar can be the most ruthless of all stage directors and we want to cover our bases the best we can. -- We've slated ~20-25% of the new equipment budget for improving our audio.

Specifically I'm concerned about indoor weddings, from churches to rented locations. We will be recording to Sony FS100's via a SD MixPre-D or SD 302. We already have a pair of CMC641's but that proximity may not always be an option. We also have lavs but we still need a plan-B. Right now plan-B consist of a discretely mounted 'shotgun', most likely near the floor.

With these mics and the conditions; being a quiet church and having some distance between the bride and the mic, my two main concerns are reach and the noise floor. -- I know there is no perfect answer but I'm hoping others with experience with these mic can offer some guidance.

The two mics on the top of my list are the CS3e and the CMIT. From what I can tell from my reading...

  • The CS3e has better reach but a higher noise floor.
  • The CMIT has a lower noise floor but a little less reach.

In our area humidity is not an issue although heat could be. We aren't looking for the magic bullet, we're just looking to increase our odds of good audio from a bride as often as possible.
 
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Put a lav with wireless transmitter on the pastor/priest. Put another on the groom. For the lav on the groom, mount it slightly lower than normal. This allows you to capture both bride and groom without the groom being as overpowering. You'll still need to ride the gain a little (in post if you don't have a dedicated person to mix during production), but it will help make the discrepancy between the two a little less obvious.
 
I appreciate that Alex, we do have a pair of lavs, its the plan-B we are concerned with (which may work even better). "Nobody notices audio... until it's not there."

I understand its only wedding videos but its important to us. We've been doing niche Docu/Ed and its been working out well for us, the equipment has been getting paid for. We're at a point where people are asking us for other work, including weddings. We've decided to make the investment and see if we can find our place in A/V, which includes expanding our niche work. We value audio and believe it is our responsibility to deliver the best audio possible. In weddings, its that short one-shot at the vows that we need to capture to deliver the product we envision.

I guess my question might be better phrased as this: Which mic would you recommend to capture audio from 2-6 feet from the source?
Which to me boils down to: Do I worry more about filtering out the noise floor in post -or- boosting the voice post?

I may be crocked in my thinking altogether, I honestly don't know. -- If it doesn't work, well at least I have a new ability with my audio kit. Regardless, having something other than just CMC641s seems like a smart move for us.

Part of our philosophy is that having quality equipment affords us room to grow both personally and professionally.

As for a soundman, I have my audiophile daughter. Shes only 15. She has however won 2nd and 4th place consecutively at the California State Science Fair by demonstrating how natural sounds vs synthetic sound affect the vestibular system of the human brain. She has an excellent ear too.

Any good advice is welcomed, even if that advice is "it ain't never going to work like that."
 
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Shotguns and hypers are honestly just not the right way to go for ceremonies, the mounts and cables get into shots or highly reduce your flexibility in shot angles. Not to mention that even a $2200 shotgun will sound like crap at those distances you mention. Plan A is to put a reliable wireless omni lav on the groom. If you want to spend a lot which it sounds like you do, then get zaxcom digital wireless with the transmitter's built in recorder. So any rf dropouts will not matter because the transmitter also records to chip. I have never ever needed to mic the officiant. The groom mic has always been sufficient to get fine levels for all parties, and that is using a sennheiser g3 with the the crappy omni lav it comes with. Or upgrade to a countryman b3. Yes on occasion I get rf issues but very rarely does it coincide with something important. Another option is a zaxcom zfr100 or 200. No wireless just like one of their transmitters with the chip recorder but no radio built in and those are a lot cheaper. Then use the other mics to capture the room audio from the pa. Or better yet record directly from the church pa. The good shotguns would be better for interviews at the reception etc. don't mess with booms etc. you'll just run yourselves ragged and miss many other great shot moments because you're trying to shoot a live breathing large event like a movie. It's just not necessary nor will it improve anything. I just use on camera shotgun for interviews and when possible record through the reception DJ pa system or get a feed from the band.
 
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Black Bird said:
I appreciate that Alex, we do have a pair of lavs, its the plan-B we are concerned with (which may work even better).

Any good advice is welcomed, even if that advice is "it ain't never going to work like that."
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As wbrock001 pointed out, the lavs should be your plan A.

The effective working distance of a shotgun or hypercardioid for clean dialog is under 2'. 6' is way too far away to do anything productive, and the rule with any mic for this purpose is "the closer, the better".

There are wireless transmitters, also as have been mentioned, that have built-in recorders as backups. These are in the top end ($2k+ per channel) of wireless systems, but they're worth the investment. Other than that, you can minimize dropouts by making sure you have systems with diversity receivers, and placing those receivers in a clear line-of-sight path from the transmitters. You'll have two lavs running between the three people, and the likelihood of both suffering simultaneous drop-outs is low, so you'll have a way to edit out any problems.

Your daughter may have a good ear and a good grasp on sound and the brain, but "audiophile" and "sound mixer" are two very different things. This doesn't mean she can't do it. On the contrary, she can probably learn very quickly, but she does need to study a little on how sound interacts with microphones, and how to use the equipment to get good results. There's a DVD available in the DVXUser shop that's a great starting place: Sound for Film and Television.
 
It's a radical notion but it is possible to put a wireless lav on the bride as well as the groom. That's how it would often be done in wedding scenes for feature films and TV episodics where the shot doesn't allow for boom mics and all the characters need to be mic'ed and there's no reason it couldn't be done for real weddings as well. May take some discussion with the bride but it is technically possible to mount a white lav in the bodice of the dress cabled under the fabric to a transmitter hidden on a belt or garter under the skirt.
 
That's a great question, Steve. It's also the most difficult person in the wedding party to try and wire, not because of personality or attitude, but because of wardrobe and logistics. Further, the post-ceremony logistics make it difficult, if not nearly impossible, to retrieve the lav and transmitter.

In episodic and film situations, you have complete control over the situation. In a real wedding, not so much.
 
Alex H. said:
That's a great question, Steve. It's also the most difficult person in the wedding party to try and wire, not because of personality or attitude, but because of wardrobe and logistics. Further, the post-ceremony logistics make it difficult, if not nearly impossible, to retrieve the lav and transmitter.

In episodic and film situations, you have complete control over the situation. In a real wedding, not so much.
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All true, that's why it's a radical notion. But I do know it has been done so it's worth adding to the mix of strategies under consideration.
 
Alex H. said:
As wbrock001 pointed out, the lavs should be your plan A.

The effective working distance of a shotgun or hypercardioid for clean dialog is under 2'. 6' is way too far away to do anything productive, and the rule with any mic for this purpose is "the closer, the better".
Click to expand...

wbrock001 said:
Shotguns and hypers are honestly just not the right way to go for ceremonies, the mounts and cables get into shots or highly reduce your flexibility in shot angles. Not to mention that even a $2200 shotgun will sound like crap at those distances you mention.
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Black Bird said:
Any good advice is welcomed, even if that advice is "it ain't never going to work like that."
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OK, I'm glad you guys put me straight on this. Magic tele-mic idea -- out!

wbrock001 said:
Or upgrade to a countryman b3.

Another option is a zaxcom zfr100 or 200.
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I believe we can do better than the stock Sony mic. I'll order a set of B3's.

The Zaxcom digital is interesting and I'll look at it more but it seems less likely well go that route. With all the good things I read about the G3 units we might consider buying a set of those too. Although the Sony's have always worked well for us.

The SD mixers are still in the game.

My situation is a little different than most of you hard-cores. My wife is less technical (albeit learning), but she has her opinions such as the Schoeps. As the talent she really likes the sound of the Schoeps CMC's. She favors the CMIT in this situation, but not the blue one, she says it must be the grey ones so it matches the 641's. ...and pairs, for most items like mics, cameras, etc., she always encourages me to buy them in matched pairs. -- its a little odd but I don't complain much.


Steve House said:
It's a radical notion but it is possible to put a wireless lav on the bride as well as the groom.
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You know Steve, we discussed this. It would be an already limited option due to the dress fit ...and my wife noted that some women's thighs would not 'hold-up' well to the challenge. Those white countryman b6's make it almost seem possible.

Again I appreciate the comment, it really helps. The nearest professional rental house is +4 hours away in Los Angeles while the local BestBuys is a meager hour drive.

Our niche video is where most of our work is and we want to increase our in-house production levels across the board. Our background is in psychotherapy. It took 8 years for my wife to warm-up to the idea, shes fully on-board now that we finished one series. Doing a few weddings each year appeals to our creativity and will help us reach our goal a little faster.

Thanks again for the help.
 
I'm not familiar with a grey Schoeps shotgun, there are only two models and they're both blue. The CMIT and Super CMIT. Only the CMC's are grey or nickel in appearance. I have the 641 myself and never use that more than 18" away from the source. The CMIT has been found to be a decent match for a 641, so I think there may be some confusion on her part.
 
Wow, my apologies! I looked on redding audio's site and didn't see anything about a grey one so figured there wasn't anything. Funny it looks green in all the photos and costs $110 more...I guess they are very proud of their colors. Well we all know companies charge a premium for our wives' preferences! ha ha

Its a great shotgun. There have been long ongoing arguments about its performance in humid environments though, so not great outside in Florida or parts of Texas during the summer! But I've never experienced any problems, but then I haven't shot outside in high humidity either.
 
No apology needed wb, I'm sure your knowledge of the mic is proper, leave the fashion issues for my wife and I.

We may come back for the mics later in the summer when we get ready for our 2nd series (she really wants that CMIT).
 
Its a top notch mic so you won't go wrong but if outside in "rugged" conditions the sennheiser mkh series are probably more appropriate.
 
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