Critique My Opening Scene, Please!

K

KeithK

Active member
OK, so I re-wrote - I mean, I am almost done re-writing - the opening scene for the umpteenth time. You'll notice it just abruptly ends, that's because that's as far as I have gotten, but basically they clear the plates and Peter goes to read his newspaper and Mary to watch TV before turning in for the night.

Does it make sense? Should I cut down on my use of parentheticals? Expand use? How is the dialog? Believable? Realistic? Sound scripted or contrived? Format? Find any spelling errors? Typos? Please don't hold back on me, I need nasty (or nice - if they are sincere) comments! :dankk2:

Context: The Morrisons are a family. Peter is the husband, Mary the wife and they have two sons: Jacob (22) and Jason (17). Peter is a semi-truck driver by trade and Peter is grooming Jacob to inherit the family business someday. Right now, Jacob and Peter take turns driving the same truck. Jason is in High School and is your typical arrogant teenager.

So here goes:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ns11cn.jpg - Page 1
http://i40.tinypic.com/121s95j.jpg - Page 2
http://i42.tinypic.com/2iqia07.jpg - Page 3
http://i41.tinypic.com/nfmomu.jpg - Page 4
http://i43.tinypic.com/64fkw6.jpg - Page 5
http://i44.tinypic.com/3021edh.jpg - Page 6
http://i40.tinypic.com/24es70p.jpg - Page 7
 
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my rule of thumb is to never put more than two words into parentheses... they are there to guide interpretation, not distract from dialogue.
 
nitrofour said:
my rule of thumb is to never put more than two words into parentheses... they are there to guide interpretation, not distract from dialogue.
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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing myself. I think I am gonna go through and cut them down a little.
 
I would lighten up on the fathers reprimanding. It's a bit forced. Might want to reduce it all down to something non-verbal. He doesn't need to spell out everything in classic fashion. Your audience will get that that this particular son is rambunctious without all the extra criticism from the dad.

Also, the relationship between the mother and father is a bit too perfect. Unless you have plans for them that undermine this perfection. Their exchanges are a bit antiquated, a bit "Father Knows Best", if you know what I mean.

Less is more.

I liked the dialog relating to the work they do. Seems very natural and the detail here makes me wanna know more about what this father and son do for a living.

Where are you going with the story?
 
Readers are notoriously short-fused. They'll judge you harshly and quickly. So the last thing you want to do is give them a reason in your first paragraph.

Rule of thumb is action/description should never be more than 3 lines deep on the page. Your opening paragraph of action is 6 lines. Break it up.

Your opening paragraph of description can be cut down to 3 lines anyhow. Some of your description is unnecessary, and certainly isn't something we could see or hear as the audience. How would we know the peas in the stew are firm or the carrots undercooked? If you're trying to suggest it's a bad stew, just call it a meager stew. Or only describe what we CAN see, like the "bare, tawdry dining room" (would anything taste good in such a room?). Or their expression: "Eating the stew--more broth than meat--with little enthusiasm." Note the description is even more unnecessary when the dialogue from your character reiterates how the vegetables are badly cooked anyhow.

Just some thoughts.
 
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I thought your script really started on page 2, with the peter continued part. Everything before that was boring and overstated and forced. The page 2 part gets better.

Also, you use too many parenthesis. All it really does is distract me and make me want to quit reading. It's like you're forcing too many descriptions down my throat. Read a bunch of great scripts, and they don't use them too frequently. Cut those down and just say the sentence flat. Give the reader/actor some room to think and interpret. Also, the way they might want to say it may be different..AND better.

my thoughts..
 
HerzogisGod said:
I would lighten up on the fathers reprimanding. It's a bit forced. Might want to reduce it all down to something non-verbal. He doesn't need to spell out everything in classic fashion. Your audience will get that that this particular son is rambunctious without all the extra criticism from the dad.

Also, the relationship between the mother and father is a bit too perfect. Unless you have plans for them that undermine this perfection. Their exchanges are a bit antiquated, a bit "Father Knows Best", if you know what I mean.

Less is more.

I liked the dialog relating to the work they do. Seems very natural and the detail here makes me wanna know more about what this father and son do for a living.

Where are you going with the story?
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sonic freak said:
I thought your script really started on page 2, with the peter continued part. Everything before that was boring and overstated and forced. The page 2 part gets better.

Also, you use too many parenthesis. All it really does is distract me and make me want to quit reading. It's like you're forcing too many descriptions down my throat. Read a bunch of great scripts, and they don't use them too frequently. Cut those down and just say the sentence flat. Give the reader/actor some room to think and interpret. Also, the way they might want to say it may be different..AND better.

my thoughts..
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Fair enough. You're both saying the same thing, only differently: the reprimanding father part needs to go. I am going to cut that section of the scene entirely. I was considering doing that anyway when I wound up ending the scene on page #9 and got to thinking about what that meant for the document as a whole. Having a nine page scene was a bit long for my liking. If you figure that 1 page = 1 minute on screen, S1 is 9 min of film time, or 1/15th of the entire film just in the first scene. Not the best.

You all were looking at S1 as shown in re-write 18, revision 2. Since that time - based on your feedback and my own editing and cutting, I am putting the final touches on the same S1, Rewrite 18, Revision 4. I'll post as soon as I get it finalized and see what ya 'all think of the new one. I feel much better about it just reading it, I think you will too. But I am biased, so we'll see.

sean90291 said:
Readers are notoriously short-fused. They'll judge you harshly and quickly. So the last thing you want to do is give them a reason in your first paragraph.

Rule of thumb is action/description should never be more than 3 lines deep on the page. Your opening paragraph of action is 6 lines. Break it up.

Your opening paragraph of description can be cut down to 3 lines anyhow. Some of your description is unnecessary, and certainly isn't something we could see or hear as the audience. How would we know the peas in the stew are firm or the carrots undercooked? If you're trying to suggest it's a bad stew, just call it a meager stew. Or only describe what we CAN see, like the "bare, tawdry dining room" (would anything taste good in such a room?). Or their expression: "Eating the stew--more broth than meat--with little enthusiasm." Note the description is even more unnecessary when the dialogue from your character reiterates how the vegetables are badly cooked anyhow.

Just some thoughts.
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I figured someone was gonna bring that up. That part was a bit unwieldy, but it was needed to setup some of the other. Cutting the father lectures son bit made the quality of the meal unimportant, so that helped cut that down, and we're under three lines now. The director can now direct the film, LOL.

Here is how that part sits now: Page 1 :)

Thanks for the feedback guys, keep it coming... I love it all!
 
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Ok, so here is the end of Revision 4 on this re-write for S1. Down to three pages from nine, I think it reads much better. Anyone care to comment?

S1: Page 1, Page 2 & Page 3.

(Note that I do have non-standard headers and scene numbers in place right now - they are for my navigation only - will be removed in final copies, of course).
 
you can keep the reprimanding, just make it very very specific. think of your life, or the life of your friends. Then borrow from it

back story. that's the key. this kid did something recently. something his father didn't approve of.

BACK STORY!!!!! This is where the real work comes in. this is the work that separates the good from the mediocre. Trust me. I'm right!!!

as soon as YOU figure out the root of this Father/Son antagonism, you may begin layering this information into your screenplay

NOTE: do not reveal what he did!!!!! keep your audience in suspense. reveal slowly, a few scenes down the line.

This also hold for the "good son". You see, this is where things get very complicated with writing, but hey, no one said writing well was easy. But there are "tricks" you can learn

For now, keep it casual. remember, your characters already know the details, or some of them at least. And you as the writer should know ALL the details. But you want to REVEAL SLOWLY.

There's a trick to this whole screen writing thing. And it lies in back story and revelation.

without back story, you end up with cliches because now you're just guessing, or filling in space.

back story will make your character's real. It will give them depth. and you as the writer will always know exactly what to put in their mouths.

the whole writing process is a trick. Done well, it's a very deceptive trick.
 
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Well, I planned on using the bad son more in subsequent scenes, but I wanted to introduce him as a problem child right from the getgo. I still kept just a touch of bad son in S1, P2 dialog lines 5-8. Just enough room that the directors should be able to get the snottyness across well, perhaps a nasty look or whatever. Does that dialog seem out of place in the scene? Does it get the point across? I thought about having the kid show up to dinner dressed in black, listening to an iPod, a further non-verbal cue that he dosent care about anyone other than himself. You know, your typical out of touch, unappreciative, jerk off teenager.
 
It will be interesting to see where this is going. A log line as well and a synopsis that contains some detail as to what the conflict is might help us with feedback, so that we can better see what you are trying to get at. :)

Some thoughts: (Feedback is generally negative, so please don't take these personally, but without more information I don't know what criteria to measure so that I can say what you've nailed)

I must say that when I first read the scene I had imagined, by the use of description and dialogue, that the film was set in the 70's, not modern, so your later description of an ipod in the above post (and which may have been a detail I might have missed in my reading of the scene) really threw me. We need the setting to tell us when we are within the first shot. eg. Sci-fi - Star Wars opens with big spaceship chasing little spaceship, westerns normally open showing horses or large expanses of rural land. Perhaps you can show dad coming out of his rig after parking it and going inside for dinner.

I think you are focusing too much on the food. It's a non-entity and doesn't deserve the attention you are giving it. As the dialogue centers around it for some time it doesn't need countless introductions.

I think you have missed the mark of trying to infer that Jason is a problem child by his style of complaining. Kids complain *all* the time, that type of remark is unlikely to cause the huge offense that it has in the script. As this argument is the crux of the whole scene, it has to be a little more believable. A family would have a little more flax for such comments, so the comment actually has to be a little more insulting - say something along the lines of "What, did you forget to turn the oven on mum?" It's a simple and innocent enough statement from a teenager, but unlike the original, it is 3D and also insults the mother's intelligence as well as her cooking - that would definitely cause a reaction from dad who is waiting for a fight or has a short fuse.

Lastly, I think that you have really overused parentheticals within the argument scene. Be careful not to direct your possible future actors and director unnecessarily - they wont appreciate it. Let the actual content of the dialogue direct an actor/reader/director how it will be said, and only use parentheticals like (sighing) if it is **absolutely** necessary, as in the delivery may change the plot or is a clue to the story etc.

As writers, we must learn to be ruthless with our writing (other people will be), if a line of description or a piece of dialogue doesn't push the story forward, ditch it. Good luck with your writing.
 
Yeddi, are you looking at the links in the first post or my update done based on feedback? I ask because I thought I removed all of the parentheticals from the latest version. I looked again and am not seeing them, are you seeing something I am missing? I also made little mention of food this time around and the argument subscene has been edited extensively.

Here are the links to the latest version:

S1: Page 1, Page 2 & Page 3.

Yeddi said:
It will be interesting to see where this is going. A log line as well and a synopsis that contains some detail as to what the conflict is might help us with feedback, so that we can better see what you are trying to get at.

Some thoughts: (Feedback is generally negative, so please don't take these personally, but without more information I don't know what criteria to measure so that I can say what you've nailed)
Click to expand...

I have avoided mentioning the plot and/or providing a synopsis as the script has been GREATLY changed since the last time I registered and copyrighted it, to the point I feel that the original copyrights and registrations are likely to be ineffective. I plan to get through this last round of revisions and polishing (which anticipate will be the last major changes, everything else should be very minor changes and spit polishing) then register and copyright again at which time I can share. I dont feel comfortable throwing the plot out there at this moment.

As for critique, no offense taken at all. Ataboys and go get 'ems wont help any. Love and need the negative feedback. The reader is not going to hold back in her coverage, no reason anyone else should either.
 
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lol, no I was reading the originals. :) It's a much smoother scene with the changes.:beer:

The stuff about not taking it personally is just my caveat empter, some writers ask for feedback and then become delicate petals due to the nature of feedback normally being about what the critic things needs changing, not what's right with it.

I would still suggest an opening scene to set the feel of the film is about that is action based rather than heading straight into dialogue though. Even if that opening scene is just a three line action transition scene into the one above, like dad polishing his rig as the sun sets then cut to dinner. Something that establishes the genre of the film for the audience, as I'm not sure what it is yet. Comedy? Family? Thriller? Mobster? Crime? Action?

Think of most hollywood movies for example.
Like I said before star wars opens with a big ship chasing a little ship = action scifi. Transformers starts with a robot attacking a military base=robots waging war on earth.
The Sixth Sense opens up with the doctor getting shot by a boy who sees dead people = the failure that drives him to succeed with the next child.
Even movies like Juno starts with Juno dancing around wanting to pee so she can do a pregnancy test = a movie about teen pregnancy.
Legally Blonde starts with the queen bee, in the luxury of her sorority getting ready for her date = romantic comedy/teen

You'll notice there is not a lot of dialogue in these opening scenes unless it is directly relevant to the action. This is because an audience will take about a minute or two after the opening credits to settle into the movie, if the dialogue is important they'll miss it - and what's the point of unimportant dialogue? Give them some bait and draw them in to make them pay attention. Show first. Intrigue. Then tell.:)
 
Interesting perspective. Thanks for the feedback and glad to hear I don't still have the same problems I thought I eliminated with the previous revision.

I had not considered doing the "setup scene" like that, I had wanted to get straight to meat of the story as I did not want the appearance of a slow-starting story that drags and run the risk of losing the reader in the process. On the other hand, what you say does make sense and could be accomplished in half a page or less, so why not? I am thinking we have the father out in the driveway, hood up, checking the oil and doing similar preventive maintenance, then the wife calls from the kitchen doorway that dinner is ready, they close the hood, shout back "OK!" and head to the house, then we open on what is currently S1. What do you think of that? Something like this.

After you read the re-written scenes, does it still feel like its set in the 1970s? I am trying to convey a rural American working-class family that is managing to get by but is sure not getting rich. I am specifically trying to avoid hillbilly stereotypes and I don't want to capitalize on the overused portrayal of country folks as always being stupid or illiterate (i.e. SHO's United States of Tara). I want them to come across as decent, hard working people of average intelligence who try hard, with solid moral compasses who in some ways still have old ways of thinking (fix it instead of replace it if you can, ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, mind your own business, working class people are the backbone of the country, wholesome meals instead of junk food, etc). Plus, I am angling for a PG-13 MPAA rating to maximize appeal to the studios.

---

On another note, if I have a scene where there is no dialog, does the 3 lines of description limit still apply? In S3, I have a scene with no dialog and its several lines worth of action long. Should I add some space-filling dialog just to avoid breaking the rule? Or should I write it in as a montage instead of just a bunch of action?
 
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Awesome! Much better, now I know so much more about the characters and the setting. Rural setting with the dinning room in a farmhouse (completely different atmosphere to an urban/city dinning room which is what I had imagined prior and which most people would automatically go to based upon their own experience). The characters are instantly established as farmers or more earthy, hands on type people and likely to be a little more traditional.

You've also in only two lines established the relationship between father and son, working together on a project, joking about mum's car exposes their bond. The dinning room setting on its own didn't give me any of these things, but now I know!

No, I no longer get that 70's feel. It was most probably from the fact that before the set up scene I had to let the description of the dinning room and dialogue (which would be a little dated for an urban/city setting) dictate the visualization, but it fits with a middle aged farmer who lives in a small rural community, hence the reason that setting up scene was so important.

As for the 3 line rule, in the words of Captain Barbosa "think of them more like guidelines". This is a general guideline to stop some writers from rambling on with unnecessary descriptive detail, like what colour the curtains are and other such things, that unless the colour is important to the plot doesn't need to be in there. There is nothing worse then filler dialogue, it slows down the pace and often comes over as contrived not truth/realistic. I often have scenes that are about 10 lines or so with no dialogue. Granted these are usually action scenes, action implying simply movement, not necessarily snappy movement, but following a character or a sequence of events as they move, if that makes sense. As long as you apply the idea of brevity to the description I don't see a problem with it if it is pushing the story forward.
 
Well, starting outside in the driveway is nice, because we can show the surrounding scenery (rural, farmhouse, trees, etc). The dinner table scene is still needed, it establishes a couple of other things i.e. its a family business with Father and Son both being involved beyond son spit polishing Dad's truck. Plus I have to introduce Jason and the wife somewhere. I like it. It works better now. I still find myself playing with the dialog here and there, but oh well. Will probably never be done with that part.

Thanks for the idea, appreciate it.
 
You've cleaned it up, but it's still just talk, show me personality in the talk, not accent.

In the first page mother 'asks' -how 'bout ham and cheese. Moms I know TELL YOU what they're gonna put in for you, tell you what's best.

Also, even smallest descriptions can be changed from basic furniture to - quaint and neat or quaint and clean.

The thing to keep in mind is DO I WANT TO TURN THE PAGE so go back to page 1. Why should I turn the page? What are you 'showing me' - what ma I reading? I don't want to read about someone's dinner.

I want to see the story through dialogue. See what is said or UNSAID.

Make me turn the page I think is more important than just cleaning up the description.
 
After reading the first few pages, the audience should know what the film is about. What is the genre? Judging by the first pages it appears that the story is a Drama or Family film, and it looks like the family may have various conflicts throughout the film.

You must grab our attention as quickly as possible by throwing a problem at the protagonist that very few people in reality have. The protagonist should be experiencing an issue that hopefully none of us ever have to go through. Family arguments are common and rather typical, therefore, you should consider increasing the conflict so that the audience knows that what the character's going through is not just a typical family argument.

I thought the revised dialogue sounded more natural than the original. Be sure to read it out loud.

Anyway, try and make it clear as soon as possible who the protagonist is, his problems, and the genre of film.
 
wnaoum3 said:
After reading the first few pages, the audience should know what the film is about. What is the genre? Judging by the first pages it appears that the story is a Drama or Family film, and it looks like the family may have various conflicts throughout the film.

You must grab our attention as quickly as possible by throwing a problem at the protagonist that very few people in reality have. The protagonist should be experiencing an issue that hopefully none of us ever have to go through. Family arguments are common and rather typical, therefore, you should consider increasing the conflict so that the audience knows that what the character's going through is not just a typical family argument.

I thought the revised dialogue sounded more natural than the original. Be sure to read it out loud.

Anyway, try and make it clear as soon as possible who the protagonist is, his problems, and the genre of film.
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Are you just giving general advice or are you considering my scene as you say this? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or snide, I'm just asking because I am unsure. How soon is "as soon as possible"? How quickly do I have to throw the problem at my protagonist? Do I need to do it in the first scene?

At this point, I am throwing the first main problem at him on page 15, though there is visible (to the audience) setup for it by page 9 and I have already dropped hints in the stuff you have seen, the cholesterol comment, for example. Yes, he is going to have a heart attack in the truck, but not while he is driving. That's just a setup for the main event. With Dad down and out, the son has to take over the business (and worry about Dad from the road - and of course I am going to make use of Dad's condition throughout - maybe Dad has a second heart attack and is in need of a transplant... then a problem with the donor list... all this while I am putting the kid though his ordeal, stretching him to break... then BAM, the main event...) and that's when the fun really begins. Its a one-two punch.

Are you saying that the current storyline fails to grab your interest? Keep in mind the first three pages is the first three minutes on screen. How much of a grab does there need to be to hold your attention beyond three minutes? There is only so much I can put in the first five scenes. What is not coming across? What aspect of the genre am I failing to to convey by that opening scene?

As stated, its a Drama/Family and Action/Crime mix. The second half of the cocktail (Action/Crime) isn't going to be pronounced until a little later on, say 15-20 minutes in or so. For those of you who know wine, a good wine usually has several different tastes, and almost always has at least two. The first taste you get as soon as it hits your tongue and then the chase as it goes down. Its hard to explain. But I thought I had conveyed the Family aspect quite well (dinner table setting, father/son business, rural setting) and the Drama I probably have not done as good of a job with, but Drama is not as much of a factor in my story.

Its a strange cocktail and that's why I like the story so much. Its hard to do anything original in Hollywood because so much has been done before. This might not be cutting edge, but my mix is off the beaten path a little and I like that. Something fresh, not another cookie cutter boy meets girl, boy goes for girl, something pulls boy and girl apart and then back together and they live happily ever after. Myself, I hate those kind of films. No matter how they try to spin it, its like a piece of used car. You can only take a drive in it so many times before it is just plain worn out and no longer serviceable.
 
KeithK said:
Are you just giving general advice or are you considering my scene as you say this? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or snide, I'm just asking because I am unsure. How soon is "as soon as possible"? How quickly do I have to throw the problem at my protagonist? Do I need to do it in the first scene?

At this point, I am throwing the first main problem at him on page 15, though there is visible (to the audience) setup for it by page 9 and I have already dropped hints in the stuff you have seen, the cholesterol comment, for example. Yes, he is going to have a heart attack in the truck, but not while he is driving. That's just a setup for the main event. With Dad down and out, the son has to take over the business (and worry about Dad from the road - and of course I am going to make use of Dad's condition throughout - maybe Dad has a second heart attack and is in need of a transplant... then a problem with the donor list... all this while I am putting the kid though his ordeal, stretching him to break... then BAM, the main event...) and that's when the fun really begins. Its a one-two punch.

Are you saying that the current storyline fails to grab your interest? Keep in mind the first three pages is the first three minutes on screen. How much of a grab does there need to be to hold your attention beyond three minutes? There is only so much I can put in the first five scenes. What is not coming across? What aspect of the genre am I failing to to convey by that opening scene?

As stated, its a Drama/Family and Action/Crime mix. The second half of the cocktail (Action/Crime) isn't going to be pronounced until a little later on, say 15-20 minutes in or so. For those of you who know wine, a good wine usually has several different tastes, and almost always has at least two. The first taste you get as soon as it hits your tongue and then the chase as it goes down. Its hard to explain. But I thought I had conveyed the Family aspect quite well (dinner table setting, father/son business, rural setting) and the Drama I probably have not done as good of a job with, but Drama is not as much of a factor in my story.

Its a strange cocktail and that's why I like the story so much. Its hard to do anything original in Hollywood because so much has been done before. This might not be cutting edge, but my mix is off the beaten path a little and I like that. Something fresh, not another cookie cutter boy meets girl, boy goes for girl, something pulls boy and girl apart and then back together and they live happily ever after. Myself, I hate those kind of films. No matter how they try to spin it, its like a piece of used car. You can only take a drive in it so many times before it is just plain worn out and no longer serviceable.
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Well first off, I like the problem you throw at the protagonist where the life of the father is at risk, and the son has to take over the business amid stressful times. That caught my attention because the stakes went up. I also thought you did a good job presenting Jason during the scene.

All I'm saying for the first scene is that it should be touched up a bit so the scene won't seem like a common family dinner. It needs to be more interesting than that. Try expressing the characters more visually and make it clear who the protagonist is for the audience.
 
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