Crew Rates?

RCBrown23, those rates are for LOW budget? Just the starting point alone for the director of $3K/day would be $54K for my 18 day shoot ... I wouldn't be able to make a film for less than $500K, if that, with the rates you're posting there ... it'd likely be $1MM+ after all the talent, etc. Granted, I know for Hollywood standards anything $5MM or less is low budget, but those rates simply can't apply for a $100K budgeted film.

So some may ask or state that I have no business making a $100K budgeted feature, and expecting it to turn out descent.

As far as going SAG, I agree with the statement that if someone can't complete the contracts/work required in advance, how is someone supposed to be confident in that same person finishing the film, or getting it into the marketplace. For myself, however, I'm not concerned about that. I've never started a project that I didn't finish, and feel quite adept to getting matieral seen, getting through the doors, etc.

However, all the hoops that it looks like I have to jump through with SAG is flat out intimidating, specifically because I've never done it before. I've got SO much on my plate already with the producing/directing end of it, that it's just one more thing that I'm not sure I'd have the time to do, and not sure how to delegate that out, and if so, then how much should that person be compensated, etc. when we're already going to be on a tight budget?

Lastly, it's the contract limitations themselves that concern me. Even with the modified low budget agreement (step up from the Ultra Low Budget), which increases the minimum I have to pay cast by 285%, I STILL can't distribute direct to DVD unless I've failed to get theatrical distribution for THREE YEARS. No investor is going to like the sound of not seeing a return for up to that long, especially when I see my bigger market (or at least more realistic upfront) being on DVD.

So ultimately these contracts push my budget WAY up, if I want to be able to follow them to the T.
 
Good points, all of them. Now, aren't SAG contracts negotiable? Like couldn't you negotiate a deal where you COULD get DVD distro earlier than three years?
 
it's negotiable. everything is. just depends to what degree your sag rep is an asshole. and they are all assholes. the reason is that they get calls from hundreds of indie producers whose features that fall thru and never get made, so until you prove that the project is funded and has a life, they'll treat you like dirt. but again, they do negotiate. for example, i just finished a feature under the ultra low budget agreement. after some wrangling and a promise of a case of beer for the rep, i got the bond waived.
 
LOL, thanks cygnet, so the bond was waived (how much would that have cost?), but does anyone think the distribution can be negotiated (i.e. being able to commercially distribute via DVD without having to go threatrical first?). My concern is that when this is compeleted, having a distributor possibly not be as interested if they have to pick up a big bill owing of back/additional pay to all the talent to accomodate the low budget agreement (or higher) pay that would typically have been paid for DVD distribution/for profit.
 
there a group called Independent Digital Entertainment (InDigEnt )
their basic budget is 150K .. they pay low budget SAG rates .. they pay all crew position 100-150 day + percent of movie ( i believe when they sold Tadpole each crew person received 50K) ... below are a list of some of their films ... many have had theatrical releases ...

here are some of the names that took min SAG rates:
Sigourney Weaver, Bebe Neuwirth, John Ritter,Kyra Sedgwick, Parker Posey, Fairuza Balk ,Denis Leary, Hope Davis ,Kevin Corrigan, Vincent D'Onofrio, Kris Kristofferson, Natasha Richardson, Uma Thurman, Tuesday Weld,Steve Zahn ,Beverly D'Angelo, Portia De Rossi ,Ethan Hawke, Katie Holmes, Oliver Platt and Patricia Clarkson ,Courteney Cox, and more

there's a crew out there for any budget.. it's the script that attracts talent ...


http://www.indigent.net/

Final | Chelsea Walls | Women in Film | Tape | Ten Tiny Love Stories | Tadpole | Personal Velocity | Kill the Poor | Pieces of April | November | Pizza | Lonesome Jim | Land of Plenty | Flakes | Sorry, Haters | Puccini For Beginners
 
Cool, thanks donatello! I recognize Pieces of April as one of the films that was shot on a DVX level camera (PD150 or 170, I believe), and November was on the DVX, which nearly everyone knows.

I wonder if they'd be open to sharing any trade secrets, etc. I'll be checking them out for sure. Again, thanks for that!
 
rcbrown23 said:
Daily Rate basic rundown for low budget feature (Dallas, TX):

Grips:
Key = 600
Best boy = 400
other = 300

Electric:
Same as grips (3 at 600, 400, 300)

1st AC = 600

Makeup = 300
Wardrobe = 300

1st AD = 1000
2nd = 350-400

Production Manager = 600
Production Coordinator = 300

PA's = 200 ( at least 4-5 PA's. 15-20 would be better)

Craft Service's = 250 (food = another 250-300)

Art Department:
Lead = 600
Greensman = 300
other = 250

Producer = 1000 (lots of times they're paid off the back end)
Director = 3000 (starting point)

Audio = 650
Audio assist = 300

Talent = 300-1 million (300 for someone without agent, SAG, etc.)

I'm sure I forgot a lot in there, but that's a basic rundown rate's down here in Dallas, and those are the key people needed for a pro shoot. And yes, those are daily rate's.
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These numbers are close to what I have been given for an ultra low budget, 300k or less. The producer from what I know gets a % of the movie and some cash during the shoot.
The lowest being the PA. I was told anything under $200 per day was an insult for a feature. For a short, anything goes but if you have people working for weeks that means they can't get other work that might pay more or if something does come up they might bail on you.
 
Just for clarification, according to SAG Indie's website, Ultra Low Budget is for films $200K and under (though it allows room for deferred pay, etc. not to exceed a different cap) ... $100K makes a HUGE difference on how much additional or less you can pay cast/crew.

Using the numbers he provided, it is simply impossible to pay everyone those rates on a Ultra Low Budget, unless you were going to perhaps try & shoot the entire feature in only 1-2 weeks, which IMO would be extra long hours, and lots more room for errors by rushing it so much more than it already is.

As far as insult for only offering so much, I think it's more in how the offer is made/approached, if they know the situation in advance, if they like the people they'll work with or the project they'll be on, etc. And is also depends on where they're at in their life when you approach them, as if they HAVE been out of work for a while, and don't have anything lined up, many times 'half of something is better than all of nothing'.
 
Envision said:
RCBrown23, those rates are for LOW budget?
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I just wanted you to see, and know, what going rates are for various people/jobs IN the industry.

Of course movies can (and are) made for MUCH less that that quote... but it still means it take's money.

Shane Caruth is from here in Dallas, and he made a little movie caller "Primer" in 2004. His budget was 10k, and if I remember correctly, he only went over by about 2k. Well, it won the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance that year. He's a good guy, and I've talked to him personally about how he made his accomplishment.

Don't know why that's relevant... just thought I'd throw it out there.

-brown
 
Actually, you can get very good SAG actors for $100-$150 a day.
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Absolutely true. And LA SAG actors are very, very talented. I just don't like "hoops".:)

Norm, you make a lot of good points, especially about DVD distribution. By the way, I wouldn't skimp on the Sound Tech. We paid ours between $450-$500 a day, and that's actually still low in LA. We paid everyone else $100-$200, usually $100-- both cast and crew.
 
Paul Coleman said:
Absolutely true. And LA SAG actors are very, very talented.
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carrottop.jpg

LA SAG actor

:grin:
 
Envision said:
That thought never occured to me, though I bet khmuse may know the answer?
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There are provisions for moving from one contract to another if the distribution plans for the project change. What would occur is an acceleration clause if you found a distributor that wanted to pickup the film. The talent would be upgraded to a contract that allowed for distribution (and they would also gain residual income) but this wouldn't occur until the deal was done. This allows you to shoot under one contract and if you are successful in your distribution plans, you can shift the talent compensation as required. No one is going to make you sit on a film for three years if there is money to be made.

What you really are going to need the most is a great CD, one that is willing to work with you to get you the best talent possible. I know several and they write deals all the time (under SAG contracts) that can attract some pretty heavy hitters, with pretty minimal initial costs. Believe me, if you have the right property, you can get anything done.

The basic thing is that everyone wants to work, but no one wants to get screwed either up front or later.

If you need any specific suggestions, please feel free to PM me and I will be more than happy to point you in the direction of a great CD or two.
 
Kevin, by CD you mean casting director right?

If so, yes, a good casting director is gold... we got super blessed with a top notch casting director for Smuggler's as well, and she did it all the way from Chicago!
 
Envision said:
Just for clarification, according to SAG Indie's website, Ultra Low Budget is for films $200K and under (though it allows room for deferred pay, etc. not to exceed a different cap) ... $100K makes a HUGE difference on how much additional or less you can pay cast/crew.

Using the numbers he provided, it is simply impossible to pay everyone those rates on a Ultra Low Budget, unless you were going to perhaps try & shoot the entire feature in only 1-2 weeks, which IMO would be extra long hours, and lots more room for errors by rushing it so much more than it already is.

As far as insult for only offering so much, I think it's more in how the offer is made/approached, if they know the situation in advance, if they like the people they'll work with or the project they'll be on, etc. And is also depends on where they're at in their life when you approach them, as if they HAVE been out of work for a while, and don't have anything lined up, many times 'half of something is better than all of nothing'.
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This is the dilema. We found we have had to shift and double up people on duties and eliminate positions. We made a first budget with figures like those and then saw we came up to 300K quickly with just below the line crew and no actors. Then with positions like Art Director and we decided to give a flat fee and an art budget and the person in that position would have to be comfortable with it. We also decided we would find someone that could do the art direction and also the wardrobe. So we could cut the wardrobe position and move that money to another area. Of course you have to find and trust the person in the art direction position now because he/she holds more cards in your finished product. With something like this, getting people to wear more hats definitly helps. With that Art directors flat fee we took some of the wardrobe money that we saved and added to the art budget to make up for the extra job but it still gave us 75% of the wardrobe to move around. The number of shooting days is crucial to the budget and make sure you have some padding for that day that gets screwed up because that effects the rest of the shoot and budget. I'm sure you already have an idea how to come up with the number of shooting days and be pretty accurate. Having a lot of locations will definitly add to the days if you can't get an evening shoot after a morning shoot. For those small shots that might take a few hours, you can use a second unit and have them knock out those while you shoot the bigger scenes as long as the talent isn't in them but I'm not sure how many times a second unit is needed in a small indie.

I'm sure you can get people to work for less, I was just mentioning something that was told to me when I had the same questions.
 
I've met several indies that have had good luck with fi-core SAG members.

Here's a website that explains all sides.

http://www.bizparentz.com/coreTruth.html

I'm certainly not advocating fi-core, I'm just saying that I have had several clients that received a much higher quality of talent using fi-core actors. And when going this route, they didn't have any union hassels.

Those hassels are put in place specifically for the protection of actors. I've seen both actors and crew horribly mistreated by unscrupulous productions.

If you are going to work as a professional- that is, you are not producing/directing as a hobby or student, but with the hopes of producing a commodity that you can sell, you should act as much like a professional as possible. Do what it takes- ask questions, read books and find a mentor you can shadow. Regardless of your signatory status, plan on treating your cast and crew very, very well.

I.
 
Thanks khmuse for your insite / help- it has been very helpful. It's funny talking to people outside the industry, and how they just cant fathom why it costs so much to make a movie- but putting a budget together it is easy to see why and how it adds up so quickly ...
 
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