Could this be a cheap solution to recording 4K from the F35?

NMSK

NMSK

Active member
Just came across an article on Facebook about this small, affordable hardware upscaler/downscaler being used with the Sony A7s's 4K output to yield even better 1080p to an external recorder.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/13127/...dware-4k-scaler-box-sony-a7s-stunning-results

Results look pretty great on the A7s so far, but whats more intriguing is that it does 4k upscaling of 1080p sources. I remember reading a thread on this forum a little while ago that mused over the idea of hooking up hardware upscaler to the F35 output to record 4K to something like the Odyssey 7Q. Sadly the scaler is HDMI based, but given that SDI to HDMI converters are more plentiful these days, shouldn't be too much of an issue. Unless theres something I'm overlooking, as its the middle of the night here in Aus currently.

Any F35 owners feeling adventurous? Could be a game changer. F35 easily has the bit depth and colour sampling to withstand the upscaling process. Then again, could always just do it in post - who knows what the pros of this set up could be though.

There's a purchase link is in the article - http://www.futureshop.co.uk/cyp-hdmi-4k-scaler-optional-up-down-scaling-p-9081.html#.U7_-TF6-3wK
 
Yep, 2am here in Melbourne! :)

Personally and I think the general consensus is, if you need/want 4k, then the f35 is not the camera for you…
Upscaling to 4k on set/pre post has no benefit and is just gonna cause headaches. Unless you're trying to trick a client/producer into thinking it's real…?

The reasons to go with the f35 are for the "texture and vibe". There are so many cameras out there that will give you a sharper picture, better low light, better dynamic range and you can do pretty much anything with colour these days.

The F35 for the most part has become an enthusiasts/cult camera. It's too much of an unknown/risk for most people :)
 
NMSK said:
Just came across an article on Facebook about this small, affordable hardware upscaler/downscaler being used with the Sony A7s's 4K output to yield even better 1080p to an external recorder.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/13127/...dware-4k-scaler-box-sony-a7s-stunning-results

Results look pretty great on the A7s so far, but whats more intriguing is that it does 4k upscaling of 1080p sources. I remember reading a thread on this forum a little while ago that mused over the idea of hooking up hardware upscaler to the F35 output to record 4K to something like the Odyssey 7Q. Sadly the scaler is HDMI based, but given that SDI to HDMI converters are more plentiful these days, shouldn't be too much of an issue. Unless theres something I'm overlooking, as its the middle of the night here in Aus currently.

Any F35 owners feeling adventurous? Could be a game changer. F35 easily has the bit depth and colour sampling to withstand the upscaling process. Then again, could always just do it in post - who knows what the pros of this set up could be though.

There's a purchase link is in the article - http://www.futureshop.co.uk/cyp-hdmi-4k-scaler-optional-up-down-scaling-p-9081.html#.U7_-TF6-3wK
Click to expand...

In the article he's using the external scalar to provide a better down-sample to 1080p than the A7 does internally. This makes logical sense - there's more than one way to skin a cat, and the external scalar may very well do a better job of downscaling than the DSLR in question does.

However, that's a very different situation than upscaling the F35, or any other 1080p source would be. Upscaling is trying to get something for nothing - you're not reducing existing data - you're extrapolating new data from a smaller initial source. It's guesstimating. Under ideal circumstances, the guesstimates may be very good - an image that is fairly static from frame to frame, that doesn't have fine patterns or textures may upscale very well - but the algorithm may not work as well when the image in question changes rapidly frame to frame and has fine patterns and textures.

But most importantly - upscaling doesn't need to be done at acquisition. Really, if you record with minimal compression, and do your workflow in 1080p you can still choose to upscale the final output. Why bother doing it at the front end of the pipeline? If your shooting ratio is 10:1 you're volunteering to encode 10x the required material to 4k, and upping your post workflow pipeline requirements. I'd much rather shoot 12bit RGB444 and pipeline that, then do a 4k uprez at the end of post production if the client wants it.

No free lunch here boys.
 
Interesting, yes it doesn't seem that useful except for misleading " my f35 shoots 4k " claims. But i think we'd all like to see an uprezzed f35 against f55 4k or similar. I do think we will be seeing more of these small hd to 4k upres boxes, look at the huge use of the c300, there is a market for it. Bluefish has a good writeup on their website about the science behind creating more pixels and you definitely get what you pay for.

Vid is right, unless we can avoid the HD bottleneck out of the f35, it makes more sense to save processor and space and wait until the final step to go to 4k.

however i think we are all starting to see producers demanding 4k even though they have 0 understanding of what that really means. For these people being able to generate 4k in real time might be the answer to using this superior camera.
 
Does the F35 look extremely good compared with RED ONE 4K, or F5/55 footage? Yes.

Better than the numbers would imply? Yes.

Is the F35 a 4K camera in the accepted sense? No.

The F35 IS NOT, will not ever be a 4K camera. The picture quality is absolutely stunning, it is basically as good as 1080P will ever get. But it is not 4K.

Up-rezzing it to 4K is entirely defeating the point, you're wasting space.

For producers that can't see the quality of the camera and demand 4K, a RED ONE, BMCC 4K or similar should satisfy them. If they don't like the look of those, tell them they've turned down the alternative.
 
Look - if you want to get a couple UHD television sets, and do a shoot-out comparison between native 4k content shot on RED, Blackmagic, Sony... with the F35 uprezzed by a hardware scalar... I'm all eyes. The results might well favor the F35 as being indistinguishable on detail and clarity. And such a test might well show an on-the-fence producer that excellent 1080p is viable.

But should we try to turn the F35 into a 4k camera on-set? I think not. Folks, some clients give you stupid requirements - not because they're stupid - but because it's what has worked for them in the past. One of three things then happens: you either convince them the requirement should be lifted as it's unnecessary ("The F35 isn't 4k, but it looks as good as 4k, and it's cheaper!"), you conform to the requirement ("I love my F35, but sure, if you need and EPIC on this shoot I do that too.") or you pass on the job, by choice or by default.

If you want to use the F35 with clients you need to learn how to sell it's merits to producers.
 
Any client that wants to pay me my usual F35 rate, plus hire on top for another camera, I let them hire what they want. If there is an issue with the camera or the footage that is caused by poor camera choice, not my issue.

I bet I could go on the DRAGON forum on REDUSER and post a picture from my F35 and get lots of feedback about how great my DRAGON looks. At 800 pixels wide under half-decent lighting, anything can be made to look fine. Like YouTube camera comparisons. Loony.

This topic has been covered to death on here. Some people are stupid. You can't cure stupid.
 
Many great points raised here - definitely not suggesting that F35 owners start pronouncing "now with 4K!", I only brought it up out of geeky curiosity than anything else. I too believe the F35 offers the finest 1080p image to date, and given its specs, if any 1080p camera was going to be be upscaled to 4K to judge its feasibility, the F35 would be the best candidate. Although uncompressed 12bit 444 and raw are different kettles of fish, the BMCC 2.5k raw files debated at 4K are reasonably impressive. I hear upscaling Arriraw to 4K is becoming a popular workflow too. Can't help but be curious about what the F35 could deliver if handled correctly, if only for the sake of nerdery :).
 
I would love to see F35 in 4K. The best film look camera should look good in 4K too. But agree doing in post is better idea.
 
NMSK said:
Many great points raised here - definitely not suggesting that F35 owners start pronouncing "now with 4K!", I only brought it up out of geeky curiosity than anything else. I too believe the F35 offers the finest 1080p image to date, and given its specs, if any 1080p camera was going to be be upscaled to 4K to judge its feasibility, the F35 would be the best candidate. Although uncompressed 12bit 444 and raw are different kettles of fish, the BMCC 2.5k raw files debated at 4K are reasonably impressive. I hear upscaling Arriraw to 4K is becoming a popular workflow too. Can't help but be curious about what the F35 could deliver if handled correctly, if only for the sake of nerdery :).
Click to expand...

So I went full nerd today and spoke to all my F65, Sony reps, and camera techs I could find an the following is what I learned.

yachacha said:
Interesting, yes it doesn't seem that useful except for misleading " my f35 shoots 4k " claims. But i think we'd all like to see an uprezzed f35 against f55 4k or similar. I do think we will be seeing more of these small hd to 4k upres boxes, look at the huge use of the c300, there is a market for it. Bluefish has a good writeup on their website about the science behind creating more pixels and you definitely get what you pay for.

Vid is right, unless we can avoid the HD bottleneck out of the f35, it makes more sense to save processor and space and wait until the final step to go to 4k.

however i think we are all starting to see producers demanding 4k even though they have 0 understanding of what that really means. For these people being able to generate 4k in real time might be the answer to using this superior camera.
Click to expand...

By using the research in the big forum thread about recorders and all. The way to get 4K from the F35 seems to be as following.

Dual-Link 4444 stream into the AJA 3GM, making it a 3g single link. The single link then connects with the Decimator 12G-Cross. Now I can't find the white paper on the actual decimator, but according to it, you should be able to output even 60 frames per second, I.E. slow mo.

Then from the decimator you go with 3g sdi into the 7Q+ and record in 422HQ or DPX.

Now if the Decimator compress the stream, it probably falls under the law of diminishing returns. But if the it stays 4444, couldn't we technically get a pretty damn nice 422HQ image that would look amazing?

Because until the image is actually saved, it is still uncompressed?

I know this solution works for the PIX E5 as well technically, but the fact is you can't shoot any frame rates higher than 30p.


Is this all insanity? Most likely.


Would I still like to see the result and see if there is a difference? YES!


C
 
You can't just send in a 4444 signal and record it as a 422 signal. They are structurally different and the incoming signal would have to be transformed and decimated down into a 422 signal. You will be losing a lot of info along the way.
 
As others have stated the only reason to try to 4K during capture would be to attempt to make the camera appear to be 4K camera. Otherwise there is no point at all. From a workflow standpoint it makes far more sense to capture in HD and upscale in post. The file sizes will be smaller, faster to work with and won't require the bandwidth/processing power of 4K. Upscaling in post will most likely produce better results with the processing being done in on a much more powerful PC, potentially, and it doesn't need to be real time.

The best upscaling tool I have come across so far is a node in Nuke called TVI scale, I don't know if it exists elsewhere. It is uses an algorithm specifically designed to upscale an image by 200%. It produces results that are visually better than any upscaler I have used so far but it is slow running at less than 1 frame per second even on a powerful PC.
 
Mitch Gross said:
You can't just send in a 4444 signal and record it as a 422 signal. They are structurally different and the incoming signal would have to be transformed and decimated down into a 422 signal. You will be losing a lot of info along the way.
Click to expand...

That’s what the decimator 12g is doing. Making it 4K 422.

C
 
Archduk, you are using confusing lingo. I understand what you want to do. Basically everything you are suggesting has been discussed. I came to the conclusion that the Aja Hi-5 4K plus might be able to do everything in one box. Input 12-bit dual link and output 4K over hdmi. Remember 7Q+ can take 4K hdmi. It will all come down to this: can the uprez use the 12-bit 4444 as a source. We don’t know. What’s the point to uprez from 10bit 422?

2nd point I would like to make is to look at those who actually use F35 will all echo the same thing: keep us simple keep it light. You are adding more devices to power, more bnc cables to drop signal, just a cable mess. I would suggest buying F35 and mastering it before you begin designing complicated signal path. It is certainly possible, but get off paper and you start to realize simpler is better. Once you know how to shoot great footage with the F35 then experiment with live 4K, it’s a cool idea, it will be a nightmare if your plan is to start this way.
 
yachacha said:
Archduk, you are using confusing lingo. I understand what you want to do. Basically everything you are suggesting has been discussed. I came to the conclusion that the Aja Hi-5 4K plus might be able to do everything in one box. Input 12-bit dual link and output 4K over hdmi. Remember 7Q+ can take 4K hdmi. It will all come down to this: can the uprez use the 12-bit 4444 as a source. We don’t know. What’s the point to uprez from 10bit 422?

2nd point I would like to make is to look at those who actually use F35 will all echo the same thing: keep us simple keep it light. You are adding more devices to power, more bnc cables to drop signal, just a cable mess. I would suggest buying F35 and mastering it before you begin designing complicated signal path. It is certainly possible, but get off paper and you start to realize simpler is better. Once you know how to shoot great footage with the F35 then experiment with live 4K, it’s a cool idea, it will be a nightmare if your plan is to start this way.
Click to expand...

I agree with what yachacha is telling you dude. You're trying to get something out of an already badass camera that IMHO doesnt make a difference to its image quality and will end you up with a camera full of cables and clutter. I was one of the few working with my F-series camera as it was intended (SRW deck, shooting on tape) and let me tell you, while I enjoyed the workflow, that camera was so damn heavy. If I could go back, I'd probably have spent that SRW money into something like a Ki Pro Mini again and kept the weight down a tad. I'm telling you from personal experience, dont start trying to get more signal than what the camera is capabile of doing either from its original recording medium or what it gives you out its BNC plugs. You're opening up a recipie for disaster that could cost you more than you paid for the camera outright.

Why not just be happy with the fact that you have 12bit 444 1080psf on a super 35mm CCD sensor? Why must we be greedy for more when we already have great tools to begin with?
 
yachacha said:
Archduk, you are using confusing lingo. I understand what you want to do. Basically everything you are suggesting has been discussed. I came to the conclusion that the Aja Hi-5 4K plus might be able to do everything in one box. Input 12-bit dual link and output 4K over hdmi. Remember 7Q+ can take 4K hdmi. It will all come down to this: can the uprez use the 12-bit 4444 as a source. We don’t know. What’s the point to uprez from 10bit 422?

2nd point I would like to make is to look at those who actually use F35 will all echo the same thing: keep us simple keep it light. You are adding more devices to power, more bnc cables to drop signal, just a cable mess. I would suggest buying F35 and mastering it before you begin designing complicated signal path. It is certainly possible, but get off paper and you start to realize simpler is better. Once you know how to shoot great footage with the F35 then experiment with live 4K, it’s a cool idea, it will be a nightmare if your plan is to start this way.
Click to expand...


I understand. Let’s just say that COVID has given me more time, and less work, hence I am trying to see what I can do in terms of research.

My goal would still be to get the F35, get it working with my PIX E5 (which I already own) and then work from there. However it is always fun to see if you can push the envelope.

I’m waiting to hear back from decimator, but they basically said they can’t convert a YUV 4444 to 4K. But hdmi 444 RGB might work, something they will test and get back to me.

When all this is over main go all is to find one that is still for sale, service it, figure out a way for it to work for me, and shoot smaller local projects with it. All commercial work people still rent Alexa minis, so it would still be mainly for my own sake.

The things that I wondering in terms of resolution is what I learn from Yedlins prep demos. 1080/2k looks amazing at 4K display. And would love to see it captured like that.

C
 
I guess my question is what's the point? The finished image will not be superior and in fact may be inferior. If it is to trick anyone into thinking that you are originating in 4K than not only is this a bad idea functionally but it can get you into some troble. I just don't see how doing this is worthwhile.
 
Archduk3 said:
The things that I wondering in terms of resolution is what I learn from Yedlins prep demos. 1080/2k looks amazing at 4K display. And would love to see it captured like that.

C
Click to expand...

I may be missing something but what I remember from watching is demo on resolution was that 4K didn't matter since the resolution increase was not noticable and HD was enough for display. Capturing in 4K is not going to change anything, what comes out of the camera is the all the data you are going to get. The best you can hope for is that it will look the same as the HD capture and the process of upscaling to 4K during capture didn't degrade the image at all.
 
Mitch Gross said:
I guess my question is what's the point? The finished image will not be superior and in fact may be inferior. If it is to trick anyone into thinking that you are originating in 4K than not only is this a bad idea functionally but it can get you into some troble. I just don't see how doing this is worthwhile.
Click to expand...

Ok I surrender.

I heard back from both black magic and decimator. As you all have said, possibility is there, just not sure what it may do, if it even works.

Thank you so much for bearing with me, I guess these COVID times has gone a bit far too my brain.

C
 
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