Cosina manufactures Zeiss as well as Nikon lenses?

[Duke M.]

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, but I didn't know where else to put this and figured AF100 users would want to know.

I've generally liked the nice contrast and characteristics in Zeiss lenses. I saw that in Zeiss CP2 as well as several other Zeiss lenses are manufactured by Cosina in Nakoh Japan. So I started researching Cosina a bit more.

I generally like the characteristics of many Nikon lenses too, even the old F mounts. (F mounts have the iris control ring.) The 85mm f1.8 is a favorite. I see that Cosina makes many of those lenses too. Very often at the very same plant as the Zeiss lenses.

I'm not pretending that the old Nikon lenses have the same coatings as modern Nikon or Zeiss lenses, but is this the reason that old Nikon lenses look so good? A lot of the same manufacturing know how went into the old F mounts that went into the Zeiss lenses?

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, but I didn't know where else to put this and figured AF100 users would want to know.

I've generally liked the nice contrast and characteristics in Zeiss lenses. I saw that in Zeiss CP2 as well as several other Zeiss lenses are manufactured by Cosina in Nakoh Japan. So I started researching Cosina a bit more.

As far as I know, the only Zeiss lenses made by Cosina are the joint ZE/ZF (joint Zeiss-Nikon) photography lenses. The CP.2's are rehoused versions of the aforementioned photography lenses, thus they count as Cosina manufactured by most definitions. However, besides those lenses, all other modern Zeiss cine-lenses (such as the DigiPrimes, LWZ's, Ultra's, Master Primes, Master Zooms, etc)... are all still made in Jena and Oberkochen Germany. So if you want to consider Cosina's role in the look of old nikons versus the newer Zeiss lenses, the ZF/ZE's & CP.2's (in regards of image, not build) are the only lenses you can compare.

**Skip this if you don't want to know about where the other Cinema Zeiss lenses come from. **
I posted an article written by Jon Fauer ASC, about Zeiss lenses in the cinematography forum. To quote, it seems Jena oversees the " optical and mechanical manufacturing, component assembly, lens polishing and grinding, receiving of optical elements, and finishing." Where as Oberkochen Germany is where "Cine lenses are completed here, along with assembly, calibrating and testing. Oberkochen is also home to R&D as well as environmental testing." It is also mentioned Jena has a research facility, but Zeiss has many other clients outside of the film and television industry, such as scientific instruments and etc, thus I'm not sure where the cine lenses are designed. Probably Oberkochen. As far as the CP.2's being rehoused. I am not sure where that takes place. Zeiss Germany may very well take the Cosina manufactured ZE and ZF lenses apart and do the assembly, calibrating and testing in Oberkochen... or not. I do not know, but the optical elements for the ZE/ZF's are made to specs, for Zeiss, by Cosina, in Japan.

I generally like the characteristics of many Nikon lenses too, even the old F mounts. (F mounts have the iris control ring.)

There are many amazing Nikon lenses from yesteryear to today, but F mount isn't just for the manual lenses... all Nikon lenses since the late 1950's have been F-mount and backwards compatible on any Nikon camera... some modern AF Nikon lenses may have different features in regards to manual or automatic control, but they all are Nikon F-mount. The only exception would be the nikon rangefinder lenses. Otherwise, people like Nikon because they have the biggest lens selection of any camera company for sticking to the F-mount for 50 years and going.

I'm not pretending that the old Nikon lenses have the same coatings as modern Nikon or Zeiss lenses, but is this the reason that old Nikon lenses look so good? A lot of the same manufacturing know how went into the old F mounts that went into the Zeiss lenses?

Even if we assume Cosina was an industry leader in quality in the past, they could only have the technology available to them at the time... so even if high-quality work was put into older Nikon lenses and they did the same with the new Zeiss lenses, their manufacturing ability today should be theoretically superior than their ability in the past... thus the connection between the old Nikons and new Zeiss is not really direct.

What you seem to be asking is the opposite of natural progress. Their ability to make nice modern Zeiss's isn't a reason they made great older Nikons... it was the other way around.

Same thing goes for Zeiss AG in Germany. They made wonderful cinema lenses in the past, but now make even better ones now. I guess the relation between any sets of lenses made by a company is experience and progress. Older lens lines pave the way for better.

 

[bgundu]

A list of lenses that Cosina manufacture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosina_Voigtländer

 

[Duke M.]

As far as I know, the only Zeiss lenses made by Cosina are the joint ZE/ZF (joint Zeiss-Nikon) photography lenses. The CP.2's are rehoused versions of the aforementioned photography lenses, thus they count as Cosina manufactured by most definitions.

There is a more all inclusive article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosina

They also mentioned Cosina making Zeiss Ikon lenses and Zeiss lenses in Leica bayonet mounts. Cosina manufactures manual focus SLR lenses for Carl Zeiss with Nikon (ZF), Pentax (ZK), Canon EOS (ZE), and M42 screw mounts (ZS). So they do make a fair amount of glass for Zeiss as well as Nikon.

Even if we assume Cosina was an industry leader in quality in the past, they could only have the technology available to them at the time... so even if high-quality work was put into older Nikon lenses and they did the same with the new Zeiss lenses, their manufacturing ability today should be theoretically superior than their ability in the past... thus the connection between the old Nikons and new Zeiss is not really direct.

Ryan, it depends in part on how you measure progress. Modern lenses are a lot less prone to flare and streaking. I think it gives character. They did have lens coatings in the 60's, 70's and 80's, which helps a lot with contrast, haze and clarity. Also the design of the lens shapes has helped eliminate a lot of barrel distortion and CA in the wide angles.

The increases in fast lenses like the Voigtländer, are also mostly due to new coatings. That being said a nice 85mm f1.8 Nikon is pretty darn nice in almost all image regards.

PS. I do understand that most Nikons fit the same mount, but the origininal F series always has the iris ring. The G series, etc do not even though it can mount on the same flange.

 

[Steve Castle]

Modern lenses are precision equipment. They are built to strict specifications and tolerances. And these specifications are built to micrometers.

For this reason it doesn't matter where the lenses are built. High volume lenses use PGM (precision glass molding) and lower-volume lenses are precision grounded via an automated machine. There is little room for artisan and craftsmanship in modern lens manufacturing.

As with any high-tech product there are modern supply chain economics that come into play. Which means that different components are shipped in by different companies in different countries to make a final product. For instance, while the Zeiss CP.2 may be built in Germany it is using its optical components that are shipped in by Cosina, though its external housing, unique 14-blade aperture, etc. may be assembled in Germany.

Other companies use a similar manufacturing principle. Tokina uses Hoya/Pentax as their glass supplier, Sony has an in-house former-Minolta division but regularly uses third-parties including Tamron (which they are a major shareholder), and there is a complex supply network that supports any lens that is built. In reality, only Nikon and Canon have the complete vertical infrastructure to really build a lens from top to bottom.

There is also an economic aspect as well. Nikon and Canon build the most advanced lenses right now because they have the largest volume and can invest in R&D ventures like nanocrystals, new optics elements, and advanced motor mechanisms using rare-earth metals, etc. They can do this not because they are special, but rather because they have a profitable business model that can support these technologies.

The most important part of choosing a lens is insuring that the lens is designed for the application and your targeted needs. The design is the most crucial aspect, and there is still a give-and-take in optics design; a jack of all trades will be a master of none.


Also note: Before the Zeiss CP.2 lenses where in the Zeiss ZF Nikons they were on the Contax mounts (which Yashica/Kyocera manufactured and licensed until 2006, which is when they started coming out on the Nikons).