Convergent Design

T

Tim Naylor

Veteran
Anyone planning on purchasing the Flash XDR? Can't get a whole lot from the site in terms of launch date. Who's got the inside dope? Seems like with SDI coming out of the EX and the HPX 170 this could really up the game. Is it worth 5G to shoot uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 ? Like to hear some opinion on this.

What I'd really like to see is CD support a wavelet, Intra, pro rez type codec instead of MPEG 2 160mb. H 264 based at 160mb would lay it to waste and may obviate the need for 10 bit UC update.

Love to hear a Barry opinion on this new product.
 
I talked to the dude over there at Convergent about being able to use something other than MPEG2 and he said it wasn't possible. If that's changed I have no idea.

I thought it might be worth it but to be honest there's a few things to consider, the main one being the price of the unit.

An HPX170XDRUltimate Setup would be like:

5400 for HPX170
4500 for Letus Ultimate
5000 for Flash XDR
1000 for 8gb/16gb High Speed Cards

16k? That's a lot of money to spend for so little. If the XDR came priced in at about 2500 then it's a hell-yeah, but at the five grand I don't think it's worth it over DVCproHD.
 
They are introducing a 10 bit UC in the Fall, supposedly. Now that is alot better than the highly compressed dvc pro codec. They it is a boatload of bandwidth.
 
10 bit could make a huge difference in dealing with noise and for color correction.

I really can't agree that DVCPro is a highly compressed codec. DVCPro50 compares favorably to Digibeta, and DVCProHD has 4x the bandwidth of the consumer level HDV.
 
ProfessorU said:
10 bit could make a huge difference in dealing with noise and for color correction.

I really can't agree that DVCPro is a highly compressed codec. DVCPro50 compares favorably to Digibeta, and DVCProHD has 4x the bandwidth of the consumer level HDV.
Click to expand...

DVC PRO HD 6.7:1 compression
DVC PRO 50 3.3: 1 compression
Digibeta 2:1

I wish it were so but DVC PRO HD is highly compressed at almost 7:1. You will pay a price in online with that. In fact, I've had better (less artifacted/noisy) sessions with UC SD. There's a reason why heavy compositing or color correction from DVC PRO HD material is often first transcoded to uncompressed 10 or 8 bit before onlining. Considerably fewer artifacts after rendering. DVC PRO HD was originally designed as an acquisition format - not an online format. It's the kind of thing that may not be as present on a smaller computer monitor but on a consumer 40 inch plus flat screen it can leave a trail of tears.

Granted, it spanks the pants off HDV in any flavor but so does a DVX 100. Even though it's 4:2:2 that gets compromised quite quickly once you go bananas with the filters.

When it's for a client that has decent online budget, I offline in DVC PRO HD but always transcode and then finish in UC. The amount of noise compared to native is night and day.
 
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Tim Naylor said:
Anyone planning on purchasing the Flash XDR? Can't get a whole lot from the site in terms of launch date. Who's got the inside dope? Seems like with SDI coming out of the EX and the HPX 170 this could really up the game. Is it worth 5G to shoot uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 ? Like to hear some opinion on this.

What I'd really like to see is CD support a wavelet, Intra, pro rez type codec instead of MPEG 2 160mb. H 264 based at 160mb would lay it to waste and may obviate the need for 10 bit UC update.

Love to hear a Barry opinion on this new product.
Click to expand...

Hi Tim-
This is Mike Schell from Convergent Design. I saw your post and wanted to answer questions about Flash XDR.

First, we plan to start initial shipments in late May, but we are already booked out for the next 3-4 months of orders.

We do use the MPEG2 Long-GOP / I-Frame only CODEC from Sony. In I-Frame only mode, the highest bit-rate is 160 Mbps 4:2:2 full-raster (1920 x 1080) 8-bit. This CODEC is above HDCAM in quality and very near visually lossless.

We have some image comparisons available to download from our website (www.convergent-design.com). Our tests show the 50 Mbps Long-GOP to be superior in quality to DVCProHD, at least on a still image. The result is not surprising, since our MPEG2 CODEC does not sub-sample the horizontal line (DVCProHD is 1280x1080), but retains the full raster (1920x1080) through compression.

I seriously doubt you will see much improvement using a 160 Mbps H.264 CODEC over the 160 Mbps I-Frame only MPEG2. H.264 does show advantages when comparing low bit-rate (under 20 Mbps) images. But, as the bit-rates increase the difference in the CODEC quality is greatly reduced. H.264 can produce better image quality than MPEG2, but currently it is way too compute intensive for NLE. I understand that AVC-Intra material (a form of H.264) must always be transcoded before editing.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
Kholi said:
I talked to the dude over there at Convergent about being able to use something other than MPEG2 and he said it wasn't possible. If that's changed I have no idea.

I thought it might be worth it but to be honest there's a few things to consider, the main one being the price of the unit.

An HPX170XDRUltimate Setup would be like:

5400 for HPX170
4500 for Letus Ultimate
5000 for Flash XDR
1000 for 8gb/16gb High Speed Cards

16k? That's a lot of money to spend for so little. If the XDR came priced in at about 2500 then it's a hell-yeah, but at the five grand I don't think it's worth it over DVCproHD.
Click to expand...

Stay tuned, we'll have a smaller version, called nanoFlash coming out in a few months. nanoFlash will only have 2 Compact Flash slots and no analog audio, but it will be much smaller (about 4x4x2 inches) and have a smaller price tag.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
Mike Schell said:
Stay tuned, we'll have a smaller version, called nanoFlash coming out in a few months. nanoFlash will only have 2 Compact Flash slots and no analog audio, but it will be much smaller (about 4x4x2 inches) and have a smaller price tag.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

Hi Mike! Thanks for droppin' in and sayin' some words!

This is actually a bit more exciting, to be honest. The 5k price tag of the XDR, while fair, is a bit out of reach. Do you have a ballpark of how much the Smaller version will be? And, will it still use MPEG2?

Is there any possibility of a different codec? And lastly, what about HDMI support? That will feed audio and video correct?

Thanks!
 
Tim Naylor said:
When it's for a client that has decent online budget, I offline in DVC PRO HD but always transcode and then finish in UC. The amount of noise compared to native is night and day.
Click to expand...

How do you manage to make noise vanish just by converting to uncompressed? Sorry, not understanding what you mean.

Any experience with transcoding/converting to ProRes HQ?
 
Kholi said:
Hi Mike! Thanks for droppin' in and sayin' some words!

This is actually a bit more exciting, to be honest. The 5k price tag of the XDR, while fair, is a bit out of reach. Do you have a ballpark of how much the Smaller version will be? And, will it still use MPEG2?

Is there any possibility of a different codec? And lastly, what about HDMI support? That will feed audio and video correct?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Hi Kholi-
No offical price yet, but we will announce in the next month (I think you will be pleased). It will use the same MPEG2 CODEC as XDR and offer the same bit-rates and capabilities and use low-cost Compact Flash. BTW, Compact Flash is 1/10 the price of P2 or SxS on a GB basis. 32GB CF cards are now $150 and fast enough for 100 Mbps. We will also be able to stripe 2 cards and get the 160 Mbps rate.

I think you will be surprised at the quality and NLE support for MPEG2 I-Frame CODEC. This is the same CODEC as the new Sony 4:2:2 50 Mbps camera introduced at NAB for $35K. We just bump up the bit-rate to 100 and 160.

We will have an option card for HDMI support, which does have both video and embedded audio.

Mike Schell
 
Mike Schell said:
Hi Kholi-
No offical price yet, but we will announce in the next month (I think you will be pleased). It will use the same MPEG2 CODEC as XDR and offer the same bit-rates and capabilities and use low-cost Compact Flash. BTW, Compact Flash is 1/10 the price of P2 or SxS on a GB basis. 32GB CF cards are now $150 and fast enough for 100 Mbps. We will also be able to stripe 2 cards and get the 160 Mbps rate.

I think you will be surprised at the quality and NLE support for MPEG2 I-Frame CODEC. This is the same CODEC as the new Sony 4:2:2 50 Mbps camera introduced at NAB for $35K. We just bump up the bit-rate to 100 and 160.

We will have an option card for HDMI support, which does have both video and embedded audio.

Mike Schell
Click to expand...

Very cool. I am unfamiliar with the CODEC, naturally, and would like to find some samples/examples in comparing it to DVCProHD, sounds like it's a lot better in general.

I know that you've said it'll outshine DVCproHD, how about computing horsepower needed?

Also, is the unit switchable between 100 and 160? That's the confusing bit, and striping is something I have no idea about. Could you explain what you mean so the not-so-savvy like myself understands? Will the two ports themselves have the ability to span over to the second card? So you could potentially do constant recording?

Lastly, the option card that you mentioned for HDMI. Is it exactly like the SDI nanoFlash unit but with audio and video? And is it going to be priced similarly?

Just so everyone knows, I tracked down the emails from Convergent Design from a while back and Mike was actually one of the guys that helped me! Timely response at a time when I'm sure they were being bombarded by the users over at DVinfo.net with redundant questions. Definitely another great company to watch out for.

Good to have you on DVXuser!!!
 
Kholi said:
How do you manage to make noise vanish just by converting to uncompressed? Sorry, not understanding what you mean.

Any experience with transcoding/converting to ProRes HQ?
Click to expand...

You can't. I'm referring to the recompression when applying color correction / compositing / etc to a DVC PRO file is more degrading than when applying the same to a UC file (even if the original was DVC PRO HD). I work with a Flame artist on occasion at Manic in NYC and the first thing he does with Varicam or HVX footage is transcode it to UC. The first DVC PRO HD gig I did (Varicam) I did about three to four years ago, as excited as a was to work with it, I couldn't believe how little range it has for CC. It really falls apart. Though nothing like HDV. I think DVC 50 can take a beating better.

re: Pro Rez.
Recently trasncoded something finished in Animation Codec (originally DVC PRO HD) to Pro Rez HQ. It was already onlined and finished. I just needed it in a smaller bandwidth that my computer could handle (MPB 2gig ram firmtek 2 bay RAID 0). The animation codec was getting choked up. I can barely if at all see the difference between the animation codec vs the pro rez. Edited in Pro Rez without a problem. Haven't done any real CC with Pro Rez though. Curious as to how well it holds up.
 
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Mike Schell said:
Hi Kholi-
No offical price yet, but we will announce in the next month (I think you will be pleased). It will use the same MPEG2 CODEC as XDR and offer the same bit-rates and capabilities and use low-cost Compact Flash. BTW, Compact Flash is 1/10 the price of P2 or SxS on a GB basis. 32GB CF cards are now $150 and fast enough for 100 Mbps. We will also be able to stripe 2 cards and get the 160 Mbps rate.

I think you will be surprised at the quality and NLE support for MPEG2 I-Frame CODEC. This is the same CODEC as the new Sony 4:2:2 50 Mbps camera introduced at NAB for $35K. We just bump up the bit-rate to 100 and 160.

We will have an option card for HDMI support, which does have both video and embedded audio.

Mike Schell
Click to expand...

It's great to have the inventor chime in. I wanted to get a little discussion going because on paper your ideas solve a few issues I have with small camera codecs (and some large ones too). Thanks for clearing up the MP2 I frame vs H264 codec. Just out of curiosity have you tested it against AVC INTRA.

The mini XDR sounds like the joint for me. Sure beats going broke on p2 cards. Just make sure to have some slick, easy and secure mounting options.

Almost forgot to ask: Slo mo support?

Tim Naylor - DP

www.timnaylor.com
 
Tim Naylor said:
The mini XDR sounds like the joint for me. Sure beats going broke on p2 cards. Just make sure to have some slick, easy and secure mounting options.

Almost forgot to ask: Slo mo support?

Tim Naylor - DP

www.timnaylor.com
Click to expand...

Same here. Although I would still keep P2 Cards for those who want the DVCProHD and expect it. We still have to find out what the SDI outputs from the 170 though.
 
Kholi said:
Same here. Although I would still keep P2 Cards for those who want the DVCProHD and expect it. We still have to find out what the SDI outputs from the 170 though.
Click to expand...

Damn, never thought of that. My guess it'll be 4:2:2 uncompressed but who knows.

Barry?
 
SDI is a standardized SMPTE transport stream, so it's always 1920x1080x4:2:2 uncompressed. Or, 1280x720x4:2:2. All at 10 bits. That's what SDI is.

But, there's optional elements: it transports 10 bits, yes, but is it a full 10 bits of data? The Canons and the HPX500 use 8 bits, with the lower two bits set to zero, so it's 8 bits of data in a 10-bit word. It's my understanding that the 170 works the same way.

Then, there's timecode & audio. The original XLH1 didn't include those, which makes recording the stream rather pointless and certainly much more difficult than it should be. The XLH1S added embedded timecode and audio in the data stream. The HPX170 also has embedded timecode and audio.

So, while it would have been the super-ultimate to have 10 bits, for the purposes of this Convergent box I don't think it even matters, I think this box is all designed around an 8-bit codec anyway (Mike, correct me if I'm wrong). AVC-Intra is 10 bits and could take full advantage of a 10-bit HD-SDI signal, but the MPEG-2 chip in the Sony is 8-bit, and Mike said this is the same codec, so I'm guessing the XDR is all 8-bit, and presumably the less-expensive box will also be 8-bit, so... should match up just fine.
 
That's exactly what I meant. Is it the 720 like RED outputs or 1080? Apparently it's 1080 (thanks Barry).

8-Bit is enough indeed, especially if it really does outshine DVCproHD.

Good question brought up by Tim: What about variable frame rates?
 
The VariCam outputs frame flags on its SDI signal. I don't know if the 170 will, presumably it will because I believe it's done in the timecode stream.

So the question to Mike is: will the XDR (or other recorders) know to ignore the duplicate frames based on the timecode flag?
 
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