Considering the HMC40, but some brief Q's

Jason Allen

Jason Allen

Well-known member
This is my first post on the DVXUser forums though I've been a lurker for a LONNNNNG time!

I'm a camera operator & editor for a small video shop in DC, and I've grown spoiled with the gear that I have available to me at work. We have a pair of HVX200s with a Letus35 adapter, tons of lights, a SteadiCam Flyer, and lots of great audio gear.

I'm gearing up to produce, film, edit, and distribute my own documentary on the side, and I want to use my own equipment for it. I'm starting from scratch, except for mics, lights, a tripod, and a field monitor.

Initially, I looked at the HVX200a or HPX170, but the cost of P2 media put that out of my reach, even with multiple smaller capacity cards. Really, it's the cost of the gear necessary to back up the footage while in the field or on the road that worried me. With SDHC media however, I could simply dump footage to portable hard disks via a tiny laptop or netbook. (Redundancy in the field is KEY for digital workflow safety and integrity!)

So logically, I began looking at the HMC-150, which is very appealing to me, as it's very similar to the HVX200 I've grown accustomed to at work, but it's in the realm of what I can afford, and I have a number of 16GB and 32GB Sandisk Extreme class 10 SDHC cards that'd play nicely with it, so that's one less expense. It has XLR ins, looks and feels like the HVX200/HPX170, and is arguably an upgrade from my office's HVX200 in many ways (i.e. waveform monitor, 1080p, lighter weight) for my purposes.

More recently, I started researching the HMC-40, and I've been voraciously reading through the threads here for the past two weeks. I know there's no "free lunch" when buying a less expensive camera, but the $1300 saved by getting the HMC-40 instead of the HMC-150 is a healthy chunk of change... so this camera has my attention (for now).

It seems to me from what I've seen that the HMC-40 has remarkably good picture quality (better than the HMC-150?) for a camera at its price point, comparable to the HPX170 in good light. The big drawback, from what I've read, is the low light capabilities, and the not-so-wide wide end of its lens.

I've heard the HMC-40 rated at ISO 64 and I've also heard it compared to the HPX-170 in terms of low light performance (1/8th the sensitivity, 3 stops additional lighting necessary for the same exposure). I'm eager to hear how the HMC-40's light sensitivity compares to the HMC-150 (at +0db gain). I'd imagine that the low light capabilities impacts the HMC-40's ability to play nicely with 35mm lens adapters like the Letus35 Extreme or the SGBlade w/flip module. I'd REALLY like to hear from users of the HMC-40 with either of these 35mm adapters!

Why I'm still on the fence about the HMC-40: My current 35mm-style interview rig at work (HVX-200 + Letus35 + either 35mm f/2, 50mm f/1.4, or 85mm f/1.4 Zeiss primes) struggles to get enough light indoors unless we use our 650w Arri fixtures as a key light (can you say HOT lights?), or alternately, our Kino Flo Diva400 and Kino Barfly200 units REALLY close to the subject if we're travelling light. The adapters are real light-sucks, and that makes it tough to light a decent interview with the HVX-200, IMO. If I recall correctly, the HVX-200 is about ISO 320 on its own, before the adapter starts sucking light.

Also, the audio interface worries me a little. I would definitely go with the add-on XLR adapter for the HMC-40, as I have a number of great mics available to me (wireless lavs, wired lavs, condensors, and shotguns)... but how clean does the sound come through on the HMC-40's mini-jack after it leaves the adapter?

The not-so-wide lens of the HMC-40 is easily dealt with using a converter lens for b-roll purposes, so I'm not too concerned about that.

So, here are my questions to you all:
-does anyone here have real-world experience with the HMC-40 as a documentary camera (at 720p/1080p @ 24pN, or even 720p/1080p @ 30p) using a 35mm lens adapter kit for interior interviews?
-What are your thoughts on the HMC-40 vs. HMC-150 in terms of light sensitivity at +0db? Will I spend the money that I potentially "save" (because I opted for the cheaper camera) on tons of extra lighting fixtures?
-Will I regret and want to set fire to the HMC-40 when it comes to how my audio sounds in post? (compared to the HMC-150)
-Does the HMC-40 work well with the Steadicam Merlin stabilizer system? (with the arm & vest)

I'm being very cautious on this purchase because I'm investing a lot of my personal money and time into this project, and I want to be very very sure that the gear I purchase can get the job done!

Thanks to all in advance for taking your time to respond.
Regards,
J
 
Quote: What are your thoughts on the HMC-40 vs. HMC-150 in terms of light sensitivity at +0db? Will I spend the money that I potentially "save" (because I opted for the cheaper camera) on tons of extra lighting fixtures?

If you limit the HMC40 to 0db then I would answer "poor" and "probably" to those two questions. However .... the HMC40's first 12 db of gain is very clean, very useable. I would encourage you do beg, borrow or steal a cam for long enough to run some tests, since the acceptability of gain is highly subjective.

That said, the HMC150 sounds like it may be better for your purposes. (I havent used 35mm adapters so can't comment on that aspect).
 
Thanks for the info, Graham! I didn't realize that the first +12db are clean on the HMC40. I'm so used to the HVX-200's picture quality getting very noisy at +6. lol

Very interesting, Barry! I hadn't realized the HMC-150 is on par with the HPX170's light sensitivity. That's good to know, and that may just tip the scales for me completely in favor of the HMC-150. Also, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU(!) for writing the HVX & HPX Book so well. It was a huge help in terms of getting familiar with the HVX-200 when I upgraded from the DVX-100B, and I plan to buy your book for whichever camera I ultimately decide on!

I'm still interested in what others have to say about the HMC-40, so if anyone else has hands-on insight into the questions above, it would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance...
 
The HMC150 is nearly the same camera as the HPX170; same lens, same chips, same processing; the major difference between them is the recording format. So yeah, it has the same light sensitivity as the 170.

Glad you liked the book! The new one, "The HMC Book", is actually being bundled by Panasonic in with the HMC40 and HMC150, so either way you go you'd be getting it (unless you're buying used, I guess).

As for the HMC40, it's really very good. It's tiny, it's light, and the image is super-sharp. In bright light it puts out imagery on par with an EX1 or HPX370. The only real achilles' heel in it is the sensitivity; it's 50 ISO, vs. the HMC150's 500 ISO.
 
Another thing to add to the mix: The HMC80, which I believe is coming out about the end of the year.

The MHC80 uses the exact same chips and lens as the HMC40, so low light is still the same. We're guessing that with the HMC40 selling for around $2,000 (street price), the HMC80 should sell for around $2,500 (street price).

The Panasonic XLR adapter sells for around $300, so an HMC40+XLR (around $2,300) should make the larger sized HMC80 be around $200 more than the HMC40.

The HVX200 was improved with the HVX200a. To me, it looked like the low light ability of the camera improved (less noise). I don't know how much of an improvement it was in terms of additional gain, maybe Barry knows....


Also, Panasonic is introducing the 4/3" AF100 camera. No Letus35 adapter required, because it takes the lenses directly. The exact price is unknown at this time, but the current guess is around $6,000.



Bob Diaz
 
Jason,

For me, the biggest negative factor about the HMC40 is the view finder and the flip out. I find both to be pretty difficult with 55 year old eyes. Others here have found it to be OK. I can live with the low light issues, and overall, the cam has great mojo, but I struggle with focus. If this were my A-cam, I would be thinking extra monitor when tripod mounted. This could work pretty well, set the flip out on WFM and use the external monitor for framing - focusing. Note that since the flip out has buttons on it and is also a touch screen, that mounting up a hood is not too wonderful. I took a pair of snips to a standard Hoodman type, cutting away some of the lower panel so I could get a digit in there when needed. It works.

The audio is typical for a Panasonic cam which is fine for voice. Note that there has been some grousing about the 150 audio under high SPL, like loud music. I haven't used the HMC40 in loud environments yet.

Grant
 
BobDiaz said:
Another thing to add to the mix: The HMC80, which I believe is coming out about the end of the year.

The MHC80 uses the exact same chips and lens as the HMC40, so low light is still the same. We're guessing that with the HMC40 selling for around $2,000 (street price), the HMC80 should sell for around $2,500 (street price).

The Panasonic XLR adapter sells for around $300, so an HMC40+XLR (around $2,300) should make the larger sized HMC80 be around $200 more than the HMC40.

The HVX200 was improved with the HVX200a. To me, it looked like the low light ability of the camera improved (less noise). I don't know how much of an improvement it was in terms of additional gain, maybe Barry knows....


Also, Panasonic is introducing the 4/3" AF100 camera. No Letus35 adapter required, because it takes the lenses directly. The exact price is unknown at this time, but the current guess is around $6,000.



Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

Thanks for that info, Bob. I think the low light sensitivity issue of the HMC40 is going to make it unusable for me... so if the HMC80 has the same chips, it has the same problem, and costs $300 more for little/no improvement. :(

The AF100, though a sexy looking beast, is outside of my budget. A new HMC150 + new or used Letus35 with rails & risers will cost me well under $5k total, and the AF100 (assuming I can get my hands on one in time to begin filming 3 months from now) will cost $1000 more.


ggrantly said:
Jason,

For me, the biggest negative factor about the HMC40 is the view finder and the flip out. I find both to be pretty difficult with 55 year old eyes. Others here have found it to be OK. I can live with the low light issues, and overall, the cam has great mojo, but I struggle with focus. If this were my A-cam, I would be thinking extra monitor when tripod mounted. This could work pretty well, set the flip out on WFM and use the external monitor for framing - focusing. Note that since the flip out has buttons on it and is also a touch screen, that mounting up a hood is not too wonderful. I took a pair of snips to a standard Hoodman type, cutting away some of the lower panel so I could get a digit in there when needed. It works.

The audio is typical for a Panasonic cam which is fine for voice. Note that there has been some grousing about the 150 audio under high SPL, like loud music. I haven't used the HMC40 in loud environments yet.

Grant
Click to expand...

Thanks for the audio info, Grant! I don't think the high SPL issue on the HMC150 will be a concern for me, as I'm just recording conversation-level interview audio and some ambient/environmental audio during B-roll, but that's good to know about the HMC40 sounding good.

I'll be using an external 23" 1080p field monitor for the interviews when critical focus is required. For my B-roll, I'm going to be stopping down to the f/5.6-f/8.0 range where I can "set & forget" focus, and I'll be shooting primarily wide shots off of a SteadiCam Merlin or tripod, so I think the less sharp display will be fine.

I hadn't realized that the HMC40 has a touchscreen interface, however... that, I think, is going to be the final nail in the coffin for it in my book. I don't want to bobble my shots because I adjusted a setting on the touch screen.

Looks like I'm going with the HMC150 (it seems it's the budget-conscious shooter's HPX-170)! Thanks everyone for the helpful insight!
 
DV Expo is coming to the LA area September 29-30 (exhibits) and most likely there's will be updates on the AF-100. If you had to buy something today, the HMC150 is a great camera. If you can wait a bit more than 1 month, you may find the price for the AF100 may (or may not) be less.


Bob Diaz
 
"I hadn't realized that the HMC40 has a touchscreen interface, however... that, I think, is going to be the final nail in the coffin for it in my book. I don't want to bobble my shots because I adjusted a setting on the touch screen."

Jason,
You wouldn't need to monkey the touch screen whilst shooting. Actually, I have come to like the touch screen, it is just an issue with a hood attached.

Final comment from someone who owns both a 170 and HMC40: Despite a few things about the HMC40 which irritate me, the cam has terrific mojo. The image quality, given light, is simply superior to the 170 and I suppose the HMC150 also since it uses the same imager as the 170. Artifacting has been a non issue unless pressed to extremes. It is a terrific cam for the money.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
"I hadn't realized that the HMC40 has a touchscreen interface, however... that, I think, is going to be the final nail in the coffin for it in my book. I don't want to bobble my shots because I adjusted a setting on the touch screen."

Jason,
You wouldn't need to monkey the touch screen whilst shooting. Actually, I have come to like the touch screen, it is just an issue with a hood attached.

Final comment from someone who owns both a 170 and HMC40: Despite a few things about the HMC40 which irritate me, the cam has terrific mojo. The image quality, given light, is simply superior to the 170 and I suppose the HMC150 also since it uses the same imager as the 170. Artifacting has been a non issue unless pressed to extremes. It is a terrific cam for the money.

Grant
Click to expand...

I think the low light issue is really what is going to prevent the HMC-40 from working for my "A" camera needs. From my experience using the HVX-200 with a 35mm adapter, I find that I need to throw a LOT of light on a subject and the background to properly light a shot, and if the HMC-40 is going to take in even less light, then the costs will outweigh the benefits of this camera for me (i.e. having to buy more powerful, more expensive light fixtures). Touchscreen isn't a dealbreaker for me by itself, but I much prefer having dedicated control surfaces on the camera body like the HVX-200.

Maybe the HMC-40 will find its way into my kit as a "B" camera... but I really think that the HMC-150 will serve my needs better here.

BobDiaz said:
DV Expo is coming to the LA area September 29-30 (exhibits) and most likely there's will be updates on the AF-100. If you had to buy something today, the HMC150 is a great camera. If you can wait a bit more than 1 month, you may find the price for the AF100 may (or may not) be less.


Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

Ideally I'd like to have my new camera prior to a short production that I'm contracted to shoot on Oct. 1, and for other family events and paid events throughout Oct/Nov/Dec... and I'd like to have the camera for at least 2 weeks prior to my first paid gig with it in order to get comfy with it, and to thoroughly test it!

Plus, while everything I've heard/read/seen about the AF-100 looks great, I'm almost 100% positive that the cost of the AF-100 with a flexible walkaround lens will exceed my limited budget. None of the press releases I've read have mentioned the inclusion of a lens with the camera body (or maybe I missed it), and the only available panasonic micro4/3 AF lens that is currently available relevant to my needs (the 14-140) is quite expensive by itself. (I have an extensive collection of Nikon mount glass, and an adapter is cheap to m4/3, but no AF there for those times that call for it, i.e. family events)

With the HMC-150, I'm ready to shoot right out of the box, and I can add a used Letus35 adapter later, for only $650 more when the need for the "35mm look" calls for it (the first interview for my documentary is likely not going to be until December anyhow, so I can spread the cost out without taking a loan).

I'm not saying that the AF-100 is a bad camera, it's just not right for my needs and budget, but thank you for the info on that DVExpo... I'm going to keep my "ear to the ground" on the AF100 for possible rental use/purchase down the road.

Thanks guys! The HMC-150 is going to be my next camera.
 
Jason,

Per your comment "I think the low light issue is really what is going to prevent the HMC-40 from working for my "A" camera needs"

I use the HMC as a B-Cam. But in very many ways, it end up as a A- cam. The low light thing is a consideration, but if I'm not shooting outside, then I usually have lights, so it has been a minor issue. I think I would probably go for the HMC150 also, but there is just one thing to consider: the HMC40 has the best IQ of any of them. And if you are comparing to a original HVX200, you will be very surprised at how much better the HMC40 is. A qualitative opinion of 1080 footage is: the HMC40 has about 12.625% better IQ than a HPX170. Joking aside, it is noticeable. The 40 is not only sharper, it has less noise.

I wouldn't trade the HPX for the HMC, but on a budget, it is truly amazing.

Grant
 
I'm not sure if this matters or not but at the default sharpness setting the HMC40 has little to no electronic edge sharpening. This may not be important to everybody but it was to me. I don't like enhanced or sharpened edges. I don't really care how much detail an image has as long as it is clean looking. The other cameras can look this way but I believe the sharpness has to be dropped a lot making an already soft camera even softer.
 
Well, it seems that I'll have access to some heavy duty borrowed lighting, so the HMC-40 is under consideration again now that I have a ton of lights available for free! I can use the huge amount of difference between the HMC40 and HMC150 on a Steadicam of some kind (still leaning towards the Merlin arm and vest, but possibly a Glidecam 2000 or 4000 for the sled)

I'll have available to me: a pair of Arri 650w fresnels + softboxes, a Kino Flo Diva 400, a few Arri 300 and 150 lights w/ barn doors, and two Kino Barfly 200 units.

Anyone here using 35mm adapters with the HMC-40, specifically the Letus35 Mini? Will the lights I have be enough for interior 35mm adapter shots? My needs are a rig for sit-down interview use. I think I'm confident that this camera will work well for my B-roll needs, I'm just concerned about light intake while shooting the interviews via a 35mm adapter!
 
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