Considering the HMC 40/41 for high motion footage

rambooc1

rambooc1

Well-known member
Hi Guys, I'm close to purchasing this camera (HMC41) for shooting high motion footage where the camera will be subjected to jerking and shaking from the back if a Jetski on the ocean. I also process most of the footage with software stabilizer Prodad Mercalli.

I use mainly full auto mode, the cam will be in a waterproof housing and used mostly in good light.

Some Questions ...

1. CMOS ( rolling shutter issues)
2. How is the O.I.S on this Cam?
3. Durability

I know Barry Green is looking to do a report on the rolling shutter performance in another thread .. waiting patiently for that report.

Anyone have any comments on suitability or anything i have overlooked?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Comparing this to a JVC HM100


Cheers Ian
 
You might want to re-think that choice. CMOS does not do too well with jerking and shaking due to the rolling shutter.

A rapid left - right / right-left movement causes vertical lines to bend left or right. The faster the shake, the more the bent. Rapid left-right (and back) shakes make the world look like jello.

A rapid up-down / down-up movement, causes the world to appear as if it's stretched and then compressed. It has a weird look to it.

OIS can help reduce this, but it has its limits.

You may want to consider a CCD camera for this application.


Bob Diaz
 
I finally chose the HMC150/151 over the EX1 because of 3CCD vs CMOS.

CMOS does not take kindly to large/fast movement - as I found out to my cost. I had lots of footage ruined because I was trying to use a camera with CMOS, whereas the 150/151 had no problems when I reshot it (due to the 3CCD).
 
Thanks guy's that confirms what i thought about CMOS vs CCD. The sales people in camera shops have all been telling me that there are no "jello" issues with high end CMOS cameras that have high data transfer speeds. There may be improvements over consumer type cams but possibly not enough for the high motion work that i use the camera for.

A rolling shutter is a rolling shutter, nothing can change that, but i can accept that when they finally have CMOS cameras with fast frame rates (60+ as the higher = less jello) and high data transfer speeds with fast processors then CMOS may be worth looking at again.

After running high motion footage samples through Mercalli Stabilizing software from different cameras (CMOS and CCD), I have made my decision, HMC 152E (PAL version) it is.



Cheers Rambo
 
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Actually just had a look at this footage from a 3MOS HM 40 i assume shot at 720p 60fps and the jello is almost non existent. I ran the footage thru Mercalli stabilizing software and still did not show any Jello worth mentioning. I think i'm interested in this cam again as well as the Pana HMC 152. Anyone else impressed??

http://www.zfhproductions.com/movies/Labor_Day_Weekend.html
 
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The sales people in camera shops have all been telling me that there are no "jello" issues with high end CMOS cameras that have high data transfer speeds.
Click to expand...

Funny, Panasonic puts out a video that talks about dealing with these issues on their higher end CMOS cameras. I tried to find the video, but now I can't recall where I downloaded it from...

I also tried to find the dog show footage which had some rapid left/right and right left pans, but today is not my day for finding things.

We are entering into an gray area of how much shift in the image will one see and what one considers to be acceptable or not.

I have to go to work today, so I'll have to search for the clips later on.


Bob Diaz
 
Is this the dog show HMC40 footage you were looking for? http://vimeo.com/6564309


BobDiaz said:
Funny, Panasonic puts out a video that talks about dealing with these issues on their higher end CMOS cameras. I tried to find the video, but now I can't recall where I downloaded it from...

I also tried to find the dog show footage which had some rapid left/right and right left pans, but today is not my day for finding things.

We are entering into an gray area of how much shift in the image will one see and what one considers to be acceptable or not.

I have to go to work today, so I'll have to search for the clips later on.


Bob Diaz
Click to expand...
 
philiplipetz said:
Is this the dog show HMC40 footage you were looking for? http://vimeo.com/6564309
Click to expand...

BINGO!

Look at the footage starting at 01:53 forward as the camera pans quickly. You may want to log-into Vimeo and download the MP4 file (about 40 MB).

Also at close to 02:30, the camera does a quick left right shift. There are some very fast pans in the last part of the video, so study them at full speed and frame by frame to see the the jello effect is acceptible or not to you.



Bob Diaz
 
Thanks Bob, also the CMOS interview you referred to with the awesome Jan Crittenden Livingston from Panasonic at NAB was to address the Flash Banding Effect in CMOS cams, the firmware update fixes that issue but not the other rolling shutter effects.

The video is here http://www.freshdv.com/2009/04/nab-2009-panasonic-hpx300.html

Realistically, it appears CMOS cams are suitable for all types of shooting bar very high camera motion and the benefits need to be weighed up between CCD and CMOS by the individual. I'm still getting back to limiting the motion in the first place by using Gyros and other motion handling devices, as it appears CMOS is the future and bandwidth (fast transfer speeds from sensor to processor) is only going to to get better.

I also thing operator skill has a lot to do with it too.

I don't want over analyze stuff either as i discard heaps of unsuitable footage anyway, that's the nature of what i shoot.

Thanks again for the help.

Cheers Rambo
 
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After watching that dog video again, i think just about any camera would have problems with fast pans like that. especially also zoomed. Where CMOS has skew and jello, CCD would have blur, so it's a matter of picking your preference. Most of the faults are hidden in the blur and motion and i still believe if the content overrides the quality then viewers accept the limitations.

There's also the choice of the "effects" button to mask the faults ... hehe .. i'm a shooter not an artist .....hahaha.

Cheers Rambo
 
I found the video: Working with 3MOS Imagers


http://vimeo.com/5348383


It's worth looking at because it contains tips about how to work with 3MOS (CMOS) cameras. Now the HMC40 does not have flash band compensation, but the issues of vertical line distortion with fast pans still holds true and their tricks to avoid this are helpful.


Bob Diaz
 
Yep that pretty much sums it up, very helpful. Can't use all of those techniques though as most of my unavoidable camera motion is up and down as the boat/Jetski bounces over the ocean, that' s where mechanical stabilizers come in like Kenyon Gyros and camera rigs.

Thanks again Bob you have been most helpful.

Another Kenyon Gyro is on my shopping list, one for each axis.
Cheers Rambo
 
Well as much as i like the small size and some of the features of the HMC 41, I've pulled the wallet on the HMC 152. I just can't take the chances on the 3MOS for high motion footage even having seen some great video from the 41.

CCA sensor, 720p at 60fps and 21Mbps looks like uncompressed video to me and what i'll be shooting most in.

Thanks everyone for their help.

Cheers Rambo
 
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