Considering buying a new EX-1 (not R), opinions?

Barry_Green said:
I'm the wrong guy to ask, because I don't like either one of them. I can't really see why there wouldn't be an EX3R though, soon enough, so if what you really want is an EX1R but in an EX3 form factor, surely that will be coming along soon?
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Thanks for the reply.

I have a project that involves shooting some incredibly rare cars indoors with controlled lighting and outside in natural lighting and beautiful vistas. Most of these cars are valued well above $1M with a couple valued in excess of $10M. So I want as good a look as I can reasonably get.

I have shot some tests with an EX3 and the Canon 5dMkII. Footage from a 5dMkII looks very good, and although I might use some of the footage from the 5dMkII I don't believe its the right camera for this project. The EX3 footage looks good but not quite as good as I'd like. Nothing against the camera, I like it a lot, I'm just looking for ways to improve it. I'm also intrigued by the NanoFLASH and using 100Mb 4:2:2.

The Red might be an interesting solution but I'm not ready to move up to that, so I'm looking for the right combination of technology for this project.

Since you don't like either the EX1 or EX3 do you have any suggestions on other cameras I should consider? I'm sure it will be a combination of cameras.

Thanks
 
Hey Chuck... Gotta remember, Barry is a Panasonic guy ( read the titles to all his books!). Perhaps you might first decide what price range you're considering, otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges. In the sub $10k class, MHO is that there is nothing better than the EX series. Otherwise, as we start going up the price list, then you'll see the RED, the new Sony PMW-350 (which is fantastic) and so on... all the way to the $200K Sony F35.
 
I'm hoping for something in the sub $10K, predominantly because of form factor. If I can get the kind of image quality out of a "hand-held" that is my first choice. Red, depending on availability and expense isn't out of the question but probably more sophisticated than I need.

I love the VariCams but they are too big.

This is kind of an artsy project that I would like to create a quality look. Here's a frame grab for what I'm trying to accomplish.



MarmonDash1




I realize Barry's a Panasonic guy, but he gives good advice and I haven't looked at Panasonic in a few years. Maybe they have something to compete with the EX3?
 
ChuckS said:
I'm hoping for something in the sub $10K, predominantly because of form factor.
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Well, that's my #1 gripe about the EX1 -- the usability as a handheld camera is terrible. It's the most uncomfortable, most ergonomically-incorrect design I've ever experienced. I just used one last week and it reminded me just how unpleasant the thing is to use.

The image is great, no complaints on that (other than the standard disclaimer about all rolling shutters and the workarounds necessary for those). I just really don't like actually using the thing.

In a handheld form factor, you're not going to get the combination of sharpness and price tag, there's really nothing out there (well, the XHA1 and XLH1A can deliver close to the EX1's sharpness, the XLH1A is about as sillyt a form factor as the EX3, the XHA1 is actually decent). But those are tape, and tape is dying/dead.

The HPX300 is cheaper than the EX3, just as sharp, and has a better codec. But it's not a handheld form factor, so I don't know that that would work for you. It's more than the EX1, but it's $7000 after rebates and deals so it's not much more.

The HPX170 is my favorite handheld, it's at least sixty thousand times more user-friendly and has a great look, and is a lot less expensive, but the simple fact is that it's not as razor-sharp as the EX1. If that looking-through-a-window HD razor-sharpness is what the footage calls for, the EX1 does that look better than the 170.

And that's about it for handhelds... the HMC40 will get you a look that's about as sharp as the EX1, but nowhere near the sensitivity (or the price, it's in the $2,000 class). HMC40 has the 1920x1080 chipset and the 1920x1080 recording factor, but it's a really small camera so some manual control is compromised (no three lens rings, it's got one, etc.) But it's cheap and sharp and if you have enough light it really punches way above its weight class. And it's a dream for handheld work. Not suggesting it's in the same class as an EX1, because it isn't -- but it's the only thing I can think of that delivers EX1 sharpness, in a handheld form factor.

SLRs are an inexpensive option, none of them will be as sharp as an EX1 but the aliasing they do can make them look like they are, in the right circumstances, but they're less usable than an EX1 (gripes about EX1 comfort notwithstanding, at least it has all the accoutrements appropriate for a professional video camera; an SLR is an SLR). But then again the SLRs are way cheap, $1500-$2000 for one with a stock lens.

Red, depending on availability and expense isn't out of the question but probably more sophisticated than I need.

I love the VariCams but they are too big.
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A kitted out Red for handheld is bigger than a VariCam.

I realize Barry's a Panasonic guy, but he gives good advice and I haven't looked at Panasonic in a few years. Maybe they have something to compete with the EX3?
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I prefer Panasonic's approach, and have for several years. I was a Sony-only guy up until the DVX came around, when Sony doggedly stuck with the PD170 and refused to even acknowledge that folks might want 24p. I think Panasonic has more in touch with what folks want, and I like the look they deliver. Doesn't stop me from seeing what else is out there and pointing out what's best for someone regardless of who manufactures it.

HPX300 is Panasonic's EX3 competitor. 1/3" chips instead of 1/2", but other than that everything is in the HPX300's favor -- better form factor, better ergonomics, better connectivity, lower price, way way way better recording format, etc. EX3 has more customizability in its menus.

I haven't looked into the Sony HDV models, maybe you'd find something there like a Z7U that you like?
 
ChuckS said:
Thanks for the reply.

I have a project that involves shooting some incredibly rare cars indoors with controlled lighting and outside in natural lighting and beautiful vistas. Most of these cars are valued well above $1M with a couple valued in excess of $10M. So I want as good a look as I can reasonably get.
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Chuck:

Even outside in natural lighting you are going to have to do lots of lighting work, even more than inside, to get the best image, no matter what camera you use.

You probably also need a dolly & track along with all the lighting gear.

IMO, for this type of shoot, you may as well rent a high-end camera along with the other equipment.

Without good light & setup, a high end camera will just give a little prettier picture of a poorly setup shot.
 
Thanks Andrew, Barry and Jeff for the replies.

A couple of thoughts about the EX1/3: most of the shots are from a tripod, dolly or jimmy-jib which in some ways suits the EX1/3 very well. The hand held work is predominantly in very tight spaces, car interiors, under the hood, that sort of thing.

I have not seen any imagery from the HPX300, but I've heard good things. I have been very impressed with the imagery from the EX1/3 but its a 35Mb VBR long GOP codec (basically glorified HDV). I have been doing a considerable amount of color correction in Color and considering the source codec the results are really quite amazing.

So being the logical person that I am, use the HD-SDI out to the NanoFlash and capture 100Mb 4:2:2. Well that's another $2500 so the EX1/3 really starts pushing up to around $10K

The HMC40 might make a nice replacement for my Sony HDV camera at home...

Anyway lots to think about and explore. Actually I do this about every two years or so and I actually really enjoy evaluating new cameras. On additional thing to ad about the EX1/3, the XDCAM workflow works very well with FCP. How well does FCP work with P2 and AVC-Intra?
 
FCP has support for the AVC-Intra and DVCPRO-HD codecs already; it was the first NLE to support HD from P2. Of course, FCP makes you transfer file formats over to Quicktime, so there's always a process involved to "log and transfer" the footage, but once you've done so the codec is edited natively.
 
I'll just chip in and say that perhaps if you don't shoot with an EX1 much you wouldn't like the ergonomics of it handheld, but after having one for some time now, I have no complaints about it. I am intrigued on how this EX1R can improve on the handgrip just by shape alone, my EX1 feels great in the hand once you rotate the grip
 
GuyB said:
I'll just chip in and say that perhaps if you don't shoot with an EX1 much you wouldn't like the ergonomics of it handheld, but after having one for some time now, I have no complaints about it. I am intrigued on how this EX1R can improve on the handgrip just by shape alone, my EX1 feels great in the hand once you rotate the grip
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I have to agree. Now, holding the EX1 with one hand isn't going to work due to its weight, but with 2 hands, and the handle rotated you have a comfortable camera. You can't hold a normal camera in front of your belly with your hand strapped in because they don't have a rotating grip. And you can get a handle with a motorcycle type grip for your left hand too for even more stability.
 
I like the XDCAM recording format because it edits natively in Vegas very fast and smart renders straight to Blu-ray. The HQ 35 mbps is clean and makes efficient use of the flash memory storage media.

The poor ergonomics of the EX1 would count for something if I was starting from scratch, but I'm too familiar/entrenched in the Sony workflow. It's about quality and speed in that order, the ergonomics don't stand in the way of great video, a case where best loses out to good enough for all the right reasons.

We are now working with tools that at worst are an embarrasment of riches, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Red and Canon all have something to offer.

But back on the handholding ergonomics problem of the EX1, it so happens I'm left eye dominant, and look through the viewfinder with my left eye, which centers the cam in front of my torso, actually balances nicely for me in spite of the otherwise left lean tendency.
 
GuyB said:
I'll just chip in and say that perhaps if you don't shoot with an EX1 much you wouldn't like the ergonomics of it handheld, but after having one for some time now, I have no complaints about it. I am intrigued on how this EX1R can improve on the handgrip just by shape alone, my EX1 feels great in the hand once you rotate the grip
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I find it really difficult to use the grip on the camera. It feels really unstable because of the fact that the camera is too heavy to hold it only by the grip. You end up having to use two hands. My left hand ends up underneath the camera. I think if i had an extension so that i could turn the ex1 into a shoulder camera then that would be good but then i would not be able to use the eye piece.
 
The ability to rotate the hand grip helps, but IMHO the problem is that the grip is so far out to the right side that it puts a lot of torque on the wrist. (The EX1 doesn't actually weigh much more than an A1, but it feels like it does.)

I've found that transferring weight to the shoulder helps, and also helps with stability.

I've also found that shifting the weight back by using a hoodloupe with the EX1 package on the LCD helps.

Finally, putting another grip underneath helps by allowing your arm to get reinforcement from the rest of your body. When its ready to tripod mount I slide the shoulder pad off and add the field monitor.

Without them hand held is limited. But IMHO hand held should be limited anyway.
 

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