conflict between DP and director

IMO the DP should try to get the directors vision. If there is a conflict it should be handled off set. The DP should have the final word though (or the producer). I remember on Project Greenlight/Feast the DP had problems with the director. Also James Cameron had a problem with Dick Bush on Aliens II and had him replaced. Adrian Biddle finished the job.

I do think the director should at least consider what the DP has to say, especially if the DP has more experiance. But in the end the director should have final say.
 
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After having witnessed similar events on too many other shoots to mention,

I'd say that this all points to an endemic producer's problem, and it boils down to two words:

insufficient pre-production.

The DP should be the director's eyes.
The Director should be the DP's inner voice.
This can't happen in a day or two before a shoot, not when the two people don't know each other very well beforehand.
The level of cooperation between the two must be so close as to be instinctive, and, like any other couple, all disagreement must be in private, resolved by the end of the day, and definitely not in front of the children :)

This, of course, goes double between the creative and production teams, but again, it seems to be endemic that these two should always clash in public over everything.

Maybe it's the beginner's vision of how things should be, kind of like growing up in a dysfunctional family. The misbehavior of one is allowed to continue, and in fact becomes enabled, by the tolerance of the other, so that the dance may continue.

So after awhile, after the hormones and egos and power plays are all expended, the couple can settle down and get the job done.
Usually, I notice, they'll get it done without talking to each other much, because they already did all of that, in private, just the two of them, way before the rest of the cast and crew got there.


BTW, if a DP is paid for his work then it becomes work for hire and technically that person does not own his work, so unless his contract specifies specifically that he receives credit regardless, the production company is under no legal or ethical obligation to credit said DP with the show if he gets fired. (cf Adrian Biddle's sole credit in said Alien II)
 
Ic've had a similar bad experience. I worked on the Duke City Shootout last year, and I was assigned a DP who was sold to me as "top notch." Of course going to USC I was skeptical, I'm pretty good at DPing, but he was older so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Right away I was concerned when he wanted to use "natural" lighting .... for interiors. We had a crap monitor on set so I couldn't really see the output, but again I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Also, given the fact that 3/4 of the film takes places in a confessional, boring lighting scared the crap out of me.

After the first day of shooting (1/3) when I looked at the footage with the editor, we already saw vast problems; of course it all looked dull and muddy and gross. I was mortified, because I'm a very visual person, and I'm a stickler for good framing and lighting. So on day 2, I started being more specific, and telling him no in certain areas. In one case he just was not giving me what I wanted, so I asked to take the camera (HVX; so with my DVX knowledge not too far a jump) and shoot the damned thing myself. He started spouting off that no director in the history of cinema would do such a thing, it was totally unprofessional, etc.

Speaking of unprofessional, he then tried to form a cabal with himself, the set "mentor" (required for the competition) and the producer. He told them that myself and the AD were "little girls" who needed "guidance" from these "experienced professionals" and other sexist and disparaging remarks. He tried to get these guys to bully me into doing what he wanted.

I met with the mentor and producer and lead actor, and we decided to flatter him with Day 2 and then on Day 3 do only what we wanted. He agreed.

So on Day 3, he arrives on set and promptly tells us he has to leave in two hours. WHAT? So we shoot as much as we can, and incrementally each half hour he tells the person whom he scheduled time with that he would be there "in an hour." We managed to get in about 6 hours of shooting this way, but as you can imagine they weren't the most productive with a sword of Damocles hanging over our heads the whole time.

Throughout the experience I ended up spending more time arguing with the DP than with the actors, and constantly had the AD yelling at me. Most of the footage turned out like crap, and though shot on the HVX, I felt I would have made a better film at home on my DVX with my friends. We actually ended up having to cut out a lot of meat from the story because the shots were SO BORING, and the DP claimed to have gotten some shots that he didn't, so we almost had to change the ending of the film --luckily some last minute compositing by the editor saved the day.

Also, he stole the footage at the end of the shoot, because he wanted to recut a "real" and "good" version of the story his way to submit places. EXCUSE ME?

In any case, that's my DP horror story, and as a result I'd say meet with the DP beforehand, and if they're not giving you what you want, get rid of them. Don't guilt yourself into giving someone a chance that you don't mesh with, because that could ultimately, seriously, mess up your film. I don't even know if I'll even work with a DP again because of that experience.
 
No questions asked Its the director's call. Think of the DP as employee, but on the
other hand, you want to have a good realtionship with your DP and he can
save yous ass..ets

Respect him, but make sure he respects you
 
The Director was hired by the prodcuer to make the project his "baby"
a lot of the time he understands the story better than anyone.

but all the shots should be worked out before the shoot.
 
NathanPresley said:
No questions asked Its the director's call. Think of the DP as employee, but on the
other hand, you want to have a good realtionship with your DP and he can
save yous ass..ets

Respect him, but make sure he respects you
Click to expand...

There re always IMPROMPTU creative decisions that always creep up. ALWAYS. No matter how much prepping is done. We can't predict everything.

So when these decisions come up and regard the DP (lighting, lensing or other related lements),0 great DPs come up with a fantastic solutions and wil pass them by the director. something like (as an simple example) "What do you think? Should we go for this? I feel good about it? The director may say "not sure I rather do this... so lets try it this way"

at that point the DP cannot debate with the Director, with anything close to being thought of as pushy. Any great DP would go for the director's shot and make it the best solution possible.

If the DP instead says, "
na, i don't think so, becuause of this, that and the other and the director replies " lets try it this way"

Guess who has the last say? Director. He controls the set.

GReat DPs adapt and make things happen that move the creative process forward.

Who was the one who said a Director can't do camera work? a DP's job is not to hold the camera. If the director feels like holding the camera (i.e. Rigley Scott) he holds the camera. THis shouldn't have any hits on the DP. Whatsoever.

THe scenerios above are between a director and DP of equal caliber. Not a newbie director and a DP with 20 years under his belt. As in my situation the DP was within equal caliber. Even when the balance with vastly apart, a director still controls the set but should take the DPs choice with more weight.
 
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This is a very touchy subject. I have worked with all sorts of directors, a few very good and knowledgeable, a lot that could not even direct traffic at a dead end. Unfortunately, the director always has the last word, sometimes to the detriment of the DP's work. On the other hand I have seen some incompetent self labeled DPs that should not have been in that position but act like divas and take 3 hours to light a close up. I am probably a lot older that most of the DVX users so I don't take incompetence very well. I am a nice guy, but on TV commercials if I don't agree with the lighting or framing I flash a slate at the beggining of the scene that says something like " as requested by the director (Or the Advertising Agency), not aproved by the DP" and I have him hold it. Either that or I will ask for extra takes to shoot it as I see it. The main problem is that in this business it seems like a lot of people suffer from amnesia or Alzheimer and "don't remember" that the crap that's on the screen is what they wanted. No one is going to say that the director did not know what he was doing and that you just shot what he requested. It's always your fault. My worst nightmare with a director became true in my last film, an independent production with a $2.5 million budget. We shot in Puerto Rico and at the NYC sets at Universal Studios/Orlando for some winter scenes. I am very proud of the work and I was looking forward to use the footage for my Demo. I had a great crew! My fight with the director and the Producer was about the choice of lab. They wanted a "cheaper lab" not the one I had suggested here in Miami. They went with the "cheaper" lab and the results were disastrous! The processing was so uneven that even the same stock looked different one week after next. On top of that, they gave us the worst one light video transfer I have seen in my entire career. The prints for the movie theaters were just as bad, but the worst part was that the director and producer ran out of money and decided to use those unsupervised crappy video transfers as masters for the DVD sales. Needless to say, my work looks worse than if it had been shot in bad Super 8, not 35mm.

In a previous movie, we were ready to shoot the first scene, about 40 extras, full crew. The director came in late to the set (a church) and demanded a different lighting (We had agreed on the mood on a location scout and in pre-production, so I told him that we would not be shooting anything that day if we were to change it. The guy froze into a trance and here we were, almost 75 people, waiting for the "director" to say something. Finally, the producer looked at me and made some hand gestures telling me to do something. I raised my voice and said " Why don't we start with scene XYZ, the main couple comes in ...etc.
I set up the shot and the director snapped out of it and said "Great! Let's go for it. In this case it worked, but I direct when I am a director not when I am a DP on someone else's movie. Unless you are a big Hollywood boy, Diplomacy is a virtue if you want to get work.

There is another director with whom I have worked on high end commercials for almost 15 years. We are so tight that after pre-pro we hardly have to say much to each other during filming. If I do not agree with something or want to suggest a different way of doing things he goes along with my ideas because he understands that I am trying to help him. He is always prepared and knows what he wants. After a couple of good takes he looks at me and I just nod to go to the next set up or tell him I need another take. That's it. We get great stuff because we want to work for the same purpose. We try to get a great result and we don't work against each other.
 
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emotepix said:
insufficient pre-production.
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Right. On.

Hate to echo the obvious but this thread has been very informative and I hope pleny of other folks read it *before* ever turning on a camera. Films are "made" in pre-production. Everything else after that is merely executing the plan.

[And an occasional script writing class wouldn't hurt a few folks either.... ;) ]
 
I think that TRUST is the key element that has to be there in a Director /DP relationship. Once the trust is gone your not going to get the best work out of the partnership. Some might argue that a DP should never be taking control of the set, but in real life it happens all the time.

I just was talking with my director friend about his last shoot. It was night time at a lake. His DP was in the water shooting two actors doing a fight scene. The water was cold and time was ticking with the amount of exposure these actors could be in the water. After a scene the 1st AD called for the actors to get out of the water and go warm up. The DP knew he needed one more shot of the actor getting out of the water and back onto the dock so he ordered the actor to stay and finish the last shot. In retrospect the director realized it was the right call which was better for the actor and the schedule, but at the time it was uncomfortable.

Production is filled with 100's of these moments that all come back to the issue of trust. Maybe film schools need to focus more on this aspect of filmmaking.
 
It's your vision, it's your story...You have the last word...You're the director...You're in charge... I learned somewhere that first time directors in Hollywood are advised to fire someone the very first day of production to make the crew and cast see who's in charge.
 
Everyone naturally has great points here. As director you must walk the fine line of being assertive and in control and in charge and not looking like an asshole jerk. One of the biggest problems is DP ego Vs. Director ego. Esp first time/amateur directors. Each has their ideas and visions but in end, Director has the creative control/vision and DP is doing his/her best to make that vision become reality.

As director have maintain open mind, you can tell when DP is annoyed or has the ego and trying to force his vision over yours and taking your bull horn. Vs. one that just offering ideas and simply, directors don't know everything. A DP definitely shouldn't block actors for no reason other than lighting or camera movement, etc. and always tell the director too.

Trust is most important thread needed to weave your Director/DP relationship. It's earned and built. Sometimes you'll find a duo that just clings. And it's great. Other times it'll shatter. Not so great...

Diretor can't be everywhere, like the shot in the water mentioned, director should trust the DP would never make that sorta call to stay and keep shooting to get this shot unless it was absolutely necessary felt by the DP. No reason to be ego there where director feels only HE can make that decision. In end must believe everyones trying to make the best film possible, it is a collaboration afterall right?

One of the most common issues I see here is DP more experienced taking control over a less experienced/first time director whatever the reason.

I don't think a director needs to fire someone first day to show he's the man. I mean, personally I'd stage the whole thing hire someone just to be fired. Because I'm nice. But still, being decisive is a director's best friend and a loud projecting voice never mumble. Even if you go off like Woody Allen and people don't quite get what you're saying. "I don't know" is a phrase that is erased from your vocabulary. Even if you don't know.

And personally I always like to talk to DP before shoot whether days or that morning, get an idea of shots want, the workflow... let him know ideas may spark in the moment, etc. Beforehand needa let eachother know how you work, everyone is different. Communication and trust are key.

Anyways I just like hearing myself speak so I ranted on this. I just know when I started I was quick to take defensive if the DP argued my shot or something, when never should be. Or realized he's right you goofed (like lens use, f-stop, framing) and too much pride/ego to admit it. Esp first time have something to prove, just don't let it blind ya. =)
 
As soon as you walk onto the set, everything (including your own ego) should be secondary to doing whatever needs to be done to make the best film possible. If the people you're working with don't recognize this, you're working with the wrong people!
 
F-I-R-E-D!! Your actors are like your children... or your soldiers... if there's a break in the chain of command or mommy says go outside and play and daddy says face the wall... there's gonna be problems and your actors/children/soldiers won't know who to trust... then the talent will copp out by listening to the easiest direction given... then there goes the friggin' neighborhood... for future projects i suggest that AS SOON AS YOU MEET YOUR STAFF AND CREW... set the rules straight... from the get go... so everyone is on the same page... AND as soon as you smell a rat... EXTERMINATE!!
 
Wow, egos are big when people think of themselves as directors, huh?

I like to think that a good walk to walk is to divorce yourself from who got to get his or her way, because at the end of the day, the audience will blame the director for the film (in the us), the editor if they got lost in the story, and the writer if something's not funny enough. Your DoP they don't usually notice, unless your out of focus or it's an Epic genre film (swords and dragons). See, it don't really matter, the director takes most of the heat and on a first time film, it's going to suck overall/somehow.

I've worked as a director with a crappy dop. I've worked as a producer with a shitty director. I've worked as a director with a stinky actor, as well. You can still get what's best for the film, but what's best isn't always what you want or what makes you happy (or others happy). Negotiating is a fine art but here are some quick tips that I wanted to mention:

a. bring in a third person that doesn't love you or the DoP and see what she thinks.

b. clear the air, tell him/her what you think of or how you feel about her or the interactions, and remind her/him that you don't want to have that reaction and is there a better way to see things- this will make you the good guy immediately

c. find out who has the money and control of the money and as the DoP to work with you to make that person happy, he who has the money needs to be happy first with the film you're making

d. ask yourself if you're right or just mad, most times I'm just mad and want someone to apologize and I become defensive until they do

Or you can just fire them! :)
 
there is no question here, its the director's film. no one but the director should give direction to the actors, not even the producer.

second, the dp does not have a creweveryopne on set save the producer works for the director, the dp, the lighting director, the gaffers, grips, teamsters, actors, even the vfx crew. the director is the head coach, everyone answers to him.

remember, if its a good film, its everyones good film. if its a bad film, its only the director's bad film.


Jason
 
Jason Miller said:
remember, if its a good film, its everyones good film. if its a bad film, its only the director's bad film.


Jason
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Well, i'm not too sure on that.

This is someting that cross my mind those weeks. I am making a short movie with a friend, he's the director, i'm the camera operator (but i'm also the closest thing to a DP we got). And this is all our crew. We don't have no additional lights.
I have an XL2; we already have done 3 shorts toghether; and those works where "ordered" by the municipality. For each short we got a budget of 800 Euro.

I watched some of the short he did without me, and i did'nt liked too much, especially from the visual side. I know that is the story the key, but the visual side is the first thing you see. If this not work, audience will go away. I showed him some of the shorts found here on DVXuser, like i.e. "The artist" from the dramafest. He said is a collage of beautiful scenes, but he don't feel anything.
I personally think the artist is great from the visual side, but is also great 'cause tells a story without really having a spoken line.
That's the diffrence beetween me and him.

Let me say that i'm not very happy of how the prevoius shorts went out.
The main problem is acting, all the actors are non pro/non actors. Some of them where good enough to fit, while some of them where (imho) really poor. But we have to work whith that.

Bear in mind that those are my thoughts:

-The first short was some sort of comedy. Young guys, first loves, that kind of things. The actors where guys (17 y old) that plays basically themselves; nothing special. From a camera operator POV, i'm happy with some scenes, and not so happy with others (it was a month that i got the XL2, still experimenting). But the main thing was the final edit: i think that the music where totally out of places. Plus the director (also editor and writer) used way too much (and too loud) music. On a total of 15 min, he used 5 songs.

-The second short was a crime/drama. actors in their twenties. Some of them really terrible. Overracting as is worst. Plus, some of the dialogues where to me unbelievable. Plus, this was shot entirely at night (actors work during daytime). I was happy only with a few scenes. Most of them i don't like it. At the end there was a shootout. The director think is great. I think is ridiculous. Again, too much music, too loud (everything taken straight from Kill Bill; including that song "Bang, Bang, you shoot me down...) placed during a dialogue (you don't understand a line).

-The third short was an adventure-comedy (think Goonies). Kids (10-12 y old) that are working on a theater drama find a way into a castle to search a treasure. Not bad from my side. Some nice exterior shot, some decent castle shot. Some horrible theater interior. Again a problem with dialogues: the director wrote things that, to me, a kid will never say. There was a sentence: "I heard my uncle, who heard from the brother of that guy who work on the theather, that it will be closed before the end of this month". Well, it may sound right as it is, but it did'nt sound right in the mouth of a kid. Even here, imho music not adequate, i see it too much pompous. I feel it needed something more "ambient". Plus, on the final edit (showed on a cinema with 150 people) some thecnical errors, like a 16/9 clip stretched to 4/3.

But, on those shorts we got some time limitation that prevent from reshooting scenes.

-Fourth short (latest months): a comedy, again with the guys from the first short. The story is about those guys that on the 1st of may makes jokes on the citizen of the city, like "stealing" things and bring them in the main plaza... the guys goal is to steal the tractor from a bully farmer. We needed some key location: and hay-loft, a room full of computers (like a monitoring room), a garden...
I imagined the hay-loft where the tractor is as one of those old ones, made of wood, with sunlight coming from the wood spaces. For some reasons (too far away, not well know owner...) the director chose a modern, steel made hay-loft. He did'nt find a "control room" (why did'nt ask the municipality...) and we used a horrible, empty cellar.
In this short, daylight scenes were at least decent. Night scenes where a pain. He bring 3 additional light one day, but the town forgot to leave us the key to a cabin to attach. Just yesterday night we got the key of the cabin. He attach one light, (one of those 35$ bricolage light with tripod) but is dead in 5 min.
He attach one of the other; is old, smaller but is powerful. Too much powerful. The light is too much, even closing down the iris you can see that light source in not a moon like source, but something very near. He did'nt go too much away because the cables. Without is too dark; with is too bright. He said the he liked the lighting. I started getting upset. I shot the scene as he liked.

There was another scene that required a crowd of people, and we got only 8 guys. Another one was on a park, that was too dark. Ther was nothing to attach the powerful lamp. He said
"i can't believe is too dark"
I showed him the wievfinder
"see it. Is dark. black."

I'm really thinking of not putting my name in the credits.
In the end if someone see a bad movie, usually don't take apart the director side, from the dop (or sound guy) side. Is a bad movie.

On several occasion, i tell him that i was not happy with those 3 short. I telled that:
-I cannot think at those shorts as something professional. I see them amateurish short.
Did you think that a producer give you the money to do a feature? I personally don't think so.
He said: -But the guys are happy, the municipality (who paid the budget) is happy...
-Here is the problem. Noone came here and tell you straight that the short is bad. They may think is bad, but they did'nt tell you.


Sorry if i posted somthing very long, but i'm in a strange situation with a friend/work relationship, and i wanted to know what you think i can do.
On some occasions, i suggested (bear in mind, suggested,, not directed) some way for a better scene in terms of acting/lines, and were better than the ones he thinked. If i think of how those short will be out if i was'nt working with him and he shooted with his old consumer camera...

There is my name on those credits...
 
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