Concert Audio in Short Film

iamlance

iamlance

Well-known member
Hey guys, I'll be working as the sound mixer for a short film two weeks from now and am trying to decide how best to record the sound. This isn't a "proper" short film, more of a student film.

The scenes will be located in a basement where an indie concert is being held. As we are using a live, public concert with several bands, this might be a challenge.
Two guys will be having a conversation while the concert is going on in the background. What I thought would be best is to record the bands separately from the dialogue.
From what I've been told (shot changes are still underway), the bands in the background will not be framed on for much of the time, so I figure I'll be able to get away with using
sound from band (#1), recorded later in the concert, while band (#2) is in the background and the actors are in the mid/foreground.

The reason for this setup is because I am only using a single microphone: the Oktava MK-012.
I know, I know. It'd be much more ideal to have another microphone recording the same band in frame simultaneously where the second microphone would be placed in a better location.
Well I'm a poor college student and will not be able to make that happen for another couple of months.

I do however have 3 capsules for the mic: omnidirectional, cardioid, and hypercardioid.

Can I record dialogue with the hypercardioid and the bands with an omnidirectional (or cardioid, whichever is better)?
I'm not sure if this would change the sound tones too much. And if not, which capsule would I then record the room tone with?

I've never done such a setup before, and so would love to see if this works out well.

Boom, shock mount, BBG, Tascam DR-60D, etc; I have all of the other necessary equipment.

After having sound levels drop too low when using a -10 db pad on a previous film, I'm cautious about pulling it out of the bag often. This will be a loud environment,
so would it be needed? I'll of course find out when I'm there, but would rather prepare as much beforehand as possible. Thanks!
 
iamlance said:
From what I've been told (shot changes are still underway), the bands in the background will not be framed on for much of the time, so I figure I'll be able to get away with using sound from band (#1), recorded later in the concert, while band (#2) is in the background and the actors are in the mid/foreground.
Click to expand...

But if band #2 is actually playing during the dialogue scenes, how will you remove their music to then add band #1's music? Even if you want to keep the actual background music, how will you cover all the continuity breaks due to multiple takes etc?

The preferable option would be to record the music, then separately film all the dialogue without any music in the background, so you can later edit the dialogue and then add music to the final edited scenes to fool the audience into thinking they're simultaneous. But that will probably be impractical if you'll be filming at a public concert, unless you can film the dialogue bits at a different time with a fake out-of-focus band and crowd in the background, then match those shots with establishing/wide shots of the actual concert footage - not easy.
 
I had similar thoughts of doing such a thing, but I doubt they'll want to do ADR in post. Hmm, I had forgotten how much background noise there will be. How silly of me!

I can't seem to figure out how this would work at all then. The director was wanting to have as good sound as possible, but without another mic, it might be hard.
Recording the bands in the background isn't exactly a necessity, but would definitely improve the overall quality and feel of the film.
I could ask around to see if any decent mics are available to use, but I don't have high hopes.

Anyone have ideas? Oh, and even though my original suggestion has been destroyed, I'd appreciate it if the questions are still answered. They'll be useful if I manage to pick up another mic.

I wonder if I could simply get a copy of the bands' songs and layer them over crowd noises and the dialogue. That could make it seem like it was played live. But then again, you still have the problem of
syncing up the live band recorded sound.
 
It can't be done. If the director is intending to edit his shots in some way, then you will get continuity jumps in the music and obviously that won't work. His only option is to shoot one complete take of the action (or do it several times but in the knowledge that he can't cut between them). Secondly, I'd be surprised if you'd be able to record the dialogue anyway. It will most likely be drowned out by the music (unless it's an acoustic folk band or something, in which case you might get away with it, but then the band might resent actors talking over their performance!). Sorry, but the fact that this is a live public concert makes your job impossible, in my opinion.
 
Do you want usable dialog? Do you want usable music? Do you want to be able to edit this all together and keep some continuity in sound?

None of these can be done the way you're wanting to do it. Above any other challenge, getting clean dialog that can be cut together across several takes is impossible with a band playing in the background, much less with an indie band playing in a basement.

r.e. room tone: room tone is the natural noise floor of the room with no dialog/action in play. It is used to smooth out dialog edits, and thus must be recorded in the same space, at the same time, and using the exact, same mic (capsule and all) as the dialog.

When you see two people talking with a band in the background in a movie, rest assured the band wasn't playing live. Closeup shots of the band, or any shot where the band is featured close enough and in focus enough to discern, they are lip-syncing and pantomiming to a pre-recorded track. That track is treated in audio post to make it sound like it is being played in the live venue, and is then layered with walla and other effects.

For dialog, the band is distant and out of focus so that lip-sync and pantomime don't matter, if they're in frame at all. Just like the rest of the background actors, they're only acting like they're making noise but are keeping silent. The focus at that point is dialog and only dialog. Then room tone.

In post, the pre-recorded track is added in and the dialog placed on top of it.

Borrow a band and a location set up specifically for this scene, getting permission from the band to use their music.
 
Thanks guys. This is what I feared. I'll pass the info along to the director to see if he can change the script to allow for good sound.

The question on the capsule when getting room tone was because I didn't know if I could use different types of microphones for the band/dialogue. I understand it is supposed to be the same as the dialogue mic in normal situations.
I guess this isn't any different. Thanks for the help!
 
I wouldn't use the term 'Room tone' for a band, in the background or otherwise.
Normally 'Room tone' for dialog is recorded with the exact same set-up, levels, room, ect., w/o the dialog.
'Room tone' should not be confused with 'atmosphere' (aka, atmos).
 
You are not the first person to come up against this. It always amazes me that folks who want to make films are often completely oblivious to the "tricks" of filmmaking. I mean it's great as someone who works in film to talk to people who completely bought in to the "reality" of the film. But it's frustrating when you have to work with one.

The actual reality is that on a film with a budget essentially nothing but dialog is recorded when the cameras are rolling. So IF you shot a scene like this the rest of the "audience" Might look like they are talking but they are just mouthing stuff. The band isn't really playing, etc.

Then you record audience sounds, or actually your post team records (or finds) audience sounds. The band will shoot miming to the song, or possibly playing un amped along with it. You could maybe depending on how you cut even record the band with film and sound as a unit, but no dialog and use that recording and cut to the band when you need to or if they are in the BG give them ear buds and have them mimic along with the filmed version. But you NEVER have anything like a live band play on top of dialog.

It's not just a sound issue it's a picture issue. If you shoot that way it's a one shot, you can't cut or edit because of the music so the picture editor is hosed.

In your case you need to either shoot the folks and count on replacing all of the unusable dialog, and fudging the song, or you shoot the concert, then get a bunch of friends to fill the frame and shoot the dialog after the concert.

Depending on the venue and the band, and the audience you might even convince them to be your extras right before the concert.

But making it work requires pre planning, and understanding what is possible and what isn't.

The very last thing you need to worry about is using the same mic to record the band as the dialog. In fact probably nobody would do that by choice. In the first place you don't need to match. Dialog you want with the same mic if possible but in reality films are always cutting from lavs to booms and back, and you can't get much more different than that.

"The same mic" myth is another no-budget "rule". Someone saw in some puff piece that if you used the same mic it would somehow all blend together. Just not true. IF you get everything else to match the mic will make a difference, but different mic positions and actor performance are FAR more of a factor in matching. If you went crazy with your mics you could probably create a problem but if they are all in the same general food group the differences will be completely over shadowed by other factors.

So the short version to take to your director is you can mask things out visually, but you can't sound wise. If you think otherwise smile because you have been taken in by the "magic" of filmmaking.

Related to... "The Stuntman" is a good film for this point. Peter O'Toole is constantly reminding you that King Kong was only 18' tall. Most of the creatures that Jason battled (in the various films) were only a foot or so tall. And atomic bombs don't sound like explosions, at least not to anyone far enough away to survive. They are a much "gentler" rumble. What people think of is the sound that CBS news put to the image of the Bikini test detonation footage. I forget the full mix but it included a conventional explosion with a recording of Niagara Falls.
 
An example of behind the scenes filming band/music with dialog can be seen in Tom Hank's film "That Thing You Do" where the fictional Oneder/Wonders band has a spot in a 'major motion picture'.
 
In 90% of the situations it's best to explain how sound works to filmdirectors. It sounds foolish, but treath them as "small children which you have to explain where the milk comes from".
Explain them that a mic can not hear a difference between a band playing and dialogue, which human people can "seperate" (in the brain).

And let hem hear how it sounds when you record a small dialogue in a concert. And after when he says "level it up" let him hear what effect it gives in a "studio" environment.
Also let him edit it and show him the isues of editing.

The more you explain, the better. And "normally" they will listen and appreciate it.... If they don't listen... don't do it. Say you're to busy... they will take someone else
and later on they will come back to you and say "you were right, we want you for our next projects and we'll give you a big house with a swimmingpool and 75 cats".

For the band, normally it's recorded separately as told before, and the best would be in a studio where every instrument is miced. If that's not possible because it's a student project and students have to learn with falling down
and getting up and they might not have forseen to record the band in a studio. Well in that case record it on set, but if possible record it in stereo, I would say MS. Mic placed in the middle and then... hit rec.

MS recording is a type of stereo recording which is mono compatible, and you have more "freedom".
 
dre83 said:
In 90% of the situations it's best to explain how sound works to filmdirectors. It sounds foolish, but treath them as "small children which you have to explain where the milk comes from".
Click to expand...

Taking a condescending tone with a director is a really quick way to ensure never working with that director, and any director that s/he knows, ever again.

A smooth and effective production hinges on teamwork and communication, in a respectful manner. The PSM should be the one advising the director on potential sound issues at a given location, but if that's done by talking to the director like a child, it's all going to go south really fast.
 
Yes a little to much exagerated.
I didn't want to say to treat them as children but to be explain things clearly
 
Alex H. said:
Taking a condescending tone with a director is a really quick way to ensure never working with that director, and any director that s/he knows, ever again..
Click to expand...
OTOH, a director or producer with such a profound ignorance of audio may be somebody you never want to work with again, anyway...
 
On the other hand, I now lots of Directors who genuinely believe their vision can be solved by technology, and the thought that such a commonly seen and heard style is not 'real', may not have even been considered, because it's always done. I've seen so many musicians do a double take when they're asked to mime - and often, they can't resist. Drummers of course have real problems miming silently. In the UK, in the 70s, we had very strict union rules that on our National broadcaster, the BBC, meant that pop bands all had to mime for a period, and this really simplified the studio audio. Drummers had to not hit the cymbals, and the snare and toms had foam pads cut to skin size so they were silent. Look on it as another technical challenge to conquer, and perhaps get a bigger fee - as, it's not your fault they can't just play - and you have to do lots of extra work to make it happen - which of course, you're very happy to do. So your normal shoot, then a re-recoding session with the band when they CAN play.
 
I think the "more of a student film" probably means that whatever amount of work the sound is the pay will be the same. Some cold Pizza and warm generic soda.

What you really need is a can of "Rosco Sound Stop", it's sold right next to the "Rosco Light Stop".

For non theatre folks Rosco is a big supplier of everything theatre. Every time a small company would come up with some interesting useful device they would buy the company and double the price. Rosco Light Stop is what you use when the director wants spotlights on the lead but no light spill on anything else. Just spray it and the light just stops...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top