Complimenting Mediocrity...

CodyBrown

CodyBrown

Active member
I don't post much, but I browse a lot. I know this forum is supposed to help and encourage young and aspiring filmmakers but there comes a point when too much encouragement is a bad thing.

I know I will probably be slammed for this, but honestly, pretty much every movie that is posted on this board gets positive,nice, fluffy critiques. Some of these movies deserve it but some of them are simply average unoriginal ideas shot well(and sometimes not even that).

Why encourage mediocrity?

It hurts the filmmaker in the long run.

I know that we love to gawk at how amazing the DVX is (myself included) but I think it's time that we start looking at the content and ideas behind a project, not just on its cinematography but the overall effect of the entire movie.

Raise the bar high and maybe a few will reach it.

-cody
 
Hey Cody. Allot not all people that critique usually give some kind of advice on how to make a movie/whatever that is posed better. But remember that allot of the people that actual post stuff not like your self put up very good work and are proud to show it to people. Not everything on here is ground breaking and yes some things or mediocrities. But at least they are out shooting stuff. This board is made so that the people that are doing things can receive help. Not for "encouraging mediocrity" I do agree with allot of the point you are trying to make. But that is not the intent of the board. And if you look closer on most the posts you will find allot of the time people to give criticisms.
 
Cody,
Honest feedback is always prefered. If you don't feel like people are being honest with their opinions, the only thing you can do is be an example.
There is a difference however between honest positive feedback, and just being a jerk. Some can take criticism better than others, but I personally prefere when people actually make critiques. While it does feel good to have people say "that rocks" in the long run it really doesn't help.
 
Dude, when I critique I point out the things that would make it better. But there is a fine line between constructive criticism and criticism.

I'll point out things that need work, but I'll also point out the things that worked well. In almost everything that is posted there are things that work and things that don't. Then there is personal taste to be taken in consideration. Sometimes I think that using natural light is terrible, but some people like it.

hmmm, let me make my one point. We are a community, and as a community we try to encourage each other to be better. So yeah, we do go easy, but we don't want to scare people away from a craft that they could grow in.

And yeah, if their shooting they can only get better. Trying and failing is better than not trying at all. I respect that, and it automatically gets points in my book.
 
I think if people don't like something that is posted, they tend to think that they just won't bother replying and risk upsetting people. Personally I like people to rip my films to pieces, because that way you learn! I hate it if you ask for advice and people say "yeah, really liked it, it's nice."

A few months back I was talking to Mike Leigh at a festival and he clearly hated my film. Although he doesn't make my kind of films either, I really appreciated his comments and they have helped my latest project no end. If he'd just said "Yeah it was lovely," it would have been no help at all.

I agree with CodyBrown. If people are posting, they want (and risk) honest feedback, so we could be harsher, but obviously in a polite way. I want to post some shorts but my knowledge of web films is limited, so it may take a while. When I do, please dig your teeth in. Harsh critism only makes me want to improve my work!
 
Would you prefer comments be more cruel and posted with a vipers tongue? I don't think that would go over well. We're all strangers here so, fortunately, we must adhere to some diplomacy.

Besides, you can tell someone their stuff is mediocre without making them feel mediocre.
-pk

P.S. Don't be surprised if a Moderator moves this thread.
 
In my experience this is one of the best communities online to receive honest, constructive feedback.

I know that I give honest, constructive criticism, the kind that I would want from those viewing my work...

The kind of feedback given here is the kind aimed at improving the work for what it is, that's very valuable.
 
Don't get me wrong. Personally I like people to be harsh and honest. Then you also know if they really do like something. Maybe I am insecure and trust noone!?! :cry:

I always try to make positive and negative comments about anything I am asked about. I remember I once saw a short that was SO BAD that all I could think of was "Well, it's great that you're making something!"

I don't think we should all start being horrible to each other, but don't be afraid to say if there is something we don't like. so much. Put it in a "Good, bad, good sandwich." :thumbsup: :undecided :thumbsup:
 
I've yet to see anything posted here that had absolutely nothing of virtue in it... so it is always possible to sandwich in your harsh criticism around compliments... hahaha...

I agree that I would rather someone who didn't like what I did take the time to post and talk about why then just adhere to the old 'nothing nice to say..."
 
I notice a general apathy to post comments at all. I have one thread with over 1300 views and about 10 feedbacks to it, be its great or poo.
Also I would disagree with the original statement if you have (as you say) been around for a while...I sometime cringe at how harsh our members can be...It takes just one comment and the DVXers smell the blood and feast leaving a clean carcass.
A couple of films have been lightly treated recently but that may be because the said member deserves respect for input on the board. In general I get the feeling everyone’s pretty honest...have you read some of Hudson’s bad day reviews???
Practice what you preach and leave some comments..
 
id agree with the person who said that people just dont post if they have nothing good to say. if i posted something everytime i thought something was stupid i would be beating john hudson in posts right now. not everyone here is a serious filmmaker. and not everyone here is even a good filmmaker or even a good artist. but thats not the point .. as said before..its a community. and i think that as filmmakers we all know that we are harsh enough on ourselves that we dont need to hear.. "you stink" from others as well. generally we just give a warm pat on th back to encourage people. sure the film might be mediocre, but they will go on and improove.. hopefully. i think alot of us just sort of dont feel like spending the time to try and squeeze water from a stone.. if we dont see potential.. we dont try to cultivate anything. .. i dont know .. maybe thats harsh.. ive seen alot of really good stuff that i dont comment on as well. lately i dont comment on anything really because i watch them all at once later after downloading, and i dont even remember who made what later on. . but theres been alot of better and really good stuuf as of late. anyway. point is that we will say what we feel like saying. if you feel like you have the energy and time to try to turn every medeacre filmmaker here into the next M. Night.. well like david/jubal28 said.. you can be a great example. the problem is theres so much of it that you soon grow tired trying to do that. and youll realize that there are those who are dedicated to the craft and really want to learn and perfect the art of storytelling through motion pictures, and there are those who just think they have a cool camera and will be a cool filmmaker and havent yet realized that its a mechanical and technical thing as well as an art and a science. blah blah. i rambling now. but i think you get the point. were all on different levels. you must pass through "mediocre" in order to get to "outstanding".. and i think that alot of filmmakers expect people to personally awaken and move on to become better .. just as they themselves did.. because theres so many people that expect everything to just happen for them when they ...buy a dvx and use magic bullet, and throw a couple dolly shots in .. and then their film will be the next "pulp fiction". everyone wants everyone and everything to do everything for them.. nobody reads the manual for the camera.. nobody studies up on how to use 24p.. nobody bothers to learn the basics of cinematography or lighting or writing or anything else. and the problem with that is that nobody whos done all those things cares to try and make anything happen for someone who wont do it for themselves.. its a tough business out there and we dont need any slackers wanking out some AE or short film demo with all of our own instruction and not actually understanding what they are doing beyond what we tell them and then taking the job from those who deserve it. people arent just going to stop running the marathon to go back and pull the guy in the wagon that decided not to train and just sit around eating candy corn and thinking about winning the race with his new nike shoes without putting any work in. i mean its sweat blood and tears out there in the filmmaking and videography world. .. let those who dont want to really run fall by the wayside of mediocraty. like i said.. if people see potential they will probably cultivate it out of community. but otherwise it just feels like a waste of time and energy.


aaaaanyhow .. i probably sound like a jerk to some people, and others are probably saying.. "yeah.. that pretty much sums it up" the reality of it all is that if people want to get better they have to do it themselves.. they have to push and try. to learn all the time.. and make no mistake, i dont claim to be some super cool filmmaker- im constantly learning .. every day. ive got a long ways to go. the way i see it the climb is neverending.. and no matter where you are you are a long way from the top. you always stink.. you can always get better. people who come and ask for help almost always get it.. people who come and think they dont need any help .. rarely get it.

.. i probably could have summed it all up in that last sentance.. but oh well.
 
Loser, count me in the 'Yeah... that pretty much sums it up" crowd. I agree with everything you stated.

Before I shot my first feature (DEATH OF SEASONS which I'm in post on now) I had done various shorts, animated pieces, videography, etc, but I still spent a solid month just reading everything I could, every book anyone ever recommended on this forum, etc... Judith Weston, Michael Weis, Schmidt, etc etc, because I knew that I was embarking on the most difficult thing I'd ever attempted in my life. I read all of Barry's books multiple times. I practiced... etc etc... I know other people, who are even in the film community here, who I am absolutely shocked by their lack of understanding or preparation or knowledge. I do believe that some people see it more as a recreational endeavor, or they just expect, like you said, for people to do it for them, while others dive in headlong, I see it as the discipline of my life. It is the one thing I have never gotten bored of, the one thing I could be happy doing for the rest of my life... so why do anything else? That is my goal above all else, is to be able to make movies, period... And it's true no matter how much you learn, the more you learn that you don't know anything. This is why honest criticism is very important, because it helps you to get better... at least for those who 'deserve' it.
 
I think a lot of the problems discussed here stem from the general lack of knowledge on how to give feedback. Constructive criticism, objectiveness. No one would have to be afraid of discouraging others if all feedback was consistent.

I propose a feedback form to be followed by all who comment on submissions. A scorecard if you will, separated into categories:

There would be Objective Feedback, such as the following:

Artistic – Cinematography, Lighting, Writing, Audio/Soundtrack
Technical – Compression, Special Effects,

Feedback for the above should focus on specific details. If a criticism is made on any element, a suggested solution must accompany it.

Subjective Feedback may be left in the comments section:
"I thought the concept was good, but the lack of _____ distracted me."
or "It was well done and had all the elements, but still didn't do it for me."
or "This rocked!"

And people really need to name their files better. I, like iamloser, download en masse and watch later. If I did want to comment on something, I don't remember where I saw it, and usually don't take the time to search for it.

Files should be named with the following details included:
"Username-CameraModel-Title" as in "FrizzleFry-DVX-ZombieAttack.mov"
When someone submits a clip or movie, put the filename in the subject of the thread--then we can do a simple search and find the thread at a later time! Simple, right?

Well, it's up to everyone else to decide if it's worthwhile to implement any of my suggestions. But I think we should have some sort of guidelines in place to ensure easy, consistent, structured feedback.
 
wow, this thread blew up more than I thought it would...

but to respond to a few things people have said. Yes, I am kind of a hypocrite, I don't post too many critiques, mostly due to my 56 k. But recently I have gotten a higher speed and have been watching a bunch of movies that I assumed would be really awesome because of the responses people were leaving. I was disappointed.

I agree with a bunch of what has been said though. especially this "you must pass through "mediocre" in order to get to "outstanding".." I totally agree with that, but it's a long process to get to "outstanding" that involves sometimes very harsh criticism. If they can't take it, too bad, the best will persevere and maybe one day succeed.

-cody
 
CodyBrown said:
If they can't take it, too bad, the best will persevere and maybe one day succeed.

-cody
Click to expand...

Harsh...but fair

cshelton, is your DVD collection in alphabetical or chronological order? :grin:
 
I find getting people to actually download and watch your film is far more challenging than giving/receiving criticism.

I have only had 1 person say they didn't like my short film... which is telling me.. people just aren't as honest as they probably ought to be...

(unless it actual is good.. but I don't believe that).

I usually give honest feedback about things.

and yes, that is pretty damn hypocritical to say that you think there are too many "fluff" comments about work when your on a 56k modem(or were). Being that I can't see you downloading many of these films to see for yourself. Which makes me wonder about why you even posted this message?

if your so concerned with good advice and honest feedback, then stop preaching and get cracking on those comments.

as a side note, I don't agree with "you have to go through mediocore to get blah blah" crap... That is total horse ****.

People can easily make something great there first time out, just doesn't happen to often.


See what happens when I be honest I get crabby.. bah.. I will now go back into the hole I came out of.
 
Loki said:
as a side note, I don't agree with "you have to go through mediocore to get blah blah" crap... That is total horse ****.

People can easily make something great there first time out, just doesn't happen to often.

See what happens when I be honest I get crabby.. bah.. I will now go back into the hole I came out of.
Click to expand...


just curios ...name one filmmaker that did NOT make a minimum of one crappy or mediocre film before they made something that is somewhat universally considered outstanding. on top of that the person must also have NOT had the direct help/guidance of one to dozens of of others who have already been around for a while and know what they are doing whe they made their first film ever which was "outstanding".

i think the actuall odds of that happening are along the lines of winning the lottery, and i would say that making a statement like "you have to work to be able to afford to live" is fair. ...even though it is possible that you could win the lottery.

anyhow.. you are entitled to your opinion, and if you believe that my statement was "total horse @#$!" , which would seem to imply that you feel it doesnt take practise or working knowledge, experience, and sometimes even failure to become an outstanding filmmaker.. well.. thats ok. we'll have to simply agree to disagree.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top