I've been trying to use the sun as a backlight technique to light my subjects for outdoor shoots but the main 2 things causing me problems are 1. the sun going straight into my lens and 2. If I do more of a side rim light with the sun to try and eliminate the sun hitting my lens usually the sky behind the subject is very blown out (since im guessing it is close to the sun) as opposed to getting a blue less blown out sky if the sun is behind my back going straight into the talents face(causing that annoying squint). How does everyone else use this technique and succeed?
Combating problems with using the sun as a rim light outdoor lighting technique?
- Thread starter dtjohns1
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MikeWilkinson
Veteran
Can you post some grabs from your shots?
I've shot using this technique before, and have found that several things help.
1. Lens hood or matte box. Help reduce the glare into the lens.
2. Bounce cards or reflector discs are a necessity.
3. I never shoot with the sun in their eyes UNLESS I have a large diffusion panel to diffuse the sun.
4. You could experiment with graduated ND filters or polarizers.
What time of the day are you shooting? Maybe you need to let the sun be a little bit higher in the sky, or as you suggest, go for more of a side rim light. Try adjusting your angle to be a little higher so you see less sky.
I was writing some notes for a presentation earlier and was covering this topic specifically... here is a still that turned out great using a sun that was a couple hours past sunrise. I used a reflector disc to shine back in his face.
Here is an example that sounds liek what you were describing – I was ok with the glare, in fact I wanted it. If I just wanted the rim light without any glare I would have moved to the side and gone for a higher angle.
I've shot using this technique before, and have found that several things help.
1. Lens hood or matte box. Help reduce the glare into the lens.
2. Bounce cards or reflector discs are a necessity.
3. I never shoot with the sun in their eyes UNLESS I have a large diffusion panel to diffuse the sun.
4. You could experiment with graduated ND filters or polarizers.
What time of the day are you shooting? Maybe you need to let the sun be a little bit higher in the sky, or as you suggest, go for more of a side rim light. Try adjusting your angle to be a little higher so you see less sky.
I was writing some notes for a presentation earlier and was covering this topic specifically... here is a still that turned out great using a sun that was a couple hours past sunrise. I used a reflector disc to shine back in his face.
Here is an example that sounds liek what you were describing – I was ok with the glare, in fact I wanted it. If I just wanted the rim light without any glare I would have moved to the side and gone for a higher angle.
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Yea everything is turning out like the second image you posted. Even shifting a little to the left of right shows that blow out sky still which im trying to eliminate and get a well exposed blue sky. I think my problem is I need to find a way to not include a lot of sky in my shot but I dont want to have to use a high angle shot to acheive it. I still want to be at eye level
You need to push a lot of light back into the talent so you can stop down.
MikeWilkinson
Veteran
What he said. Also, I cheated in the first shot and am in a place that's a bit lower than the surrounding area– that gives me a background and no sky. But if you want sky that's not blown out, yeah you will need to stop down a lot to make it happen.
bill totolo
Veteran
Make sure you're using a modern multi-coated lens, fill in shadows with a Westcott.
Add a french flag or a matte box to your set up.
Methinks you should be okay.
Add a french flag or a matte box to your set up.
Methinks you should be okay.
Michael Carter
Veteran
Sometimes you just have to stick a thin scrim overhead, especially for midday shoots. Something like a 1/4 stop or a white mesh (white mesh is great, it softens things a bit and cuts the intensity, but still gives you a "rim".)
Black mesh softens the light but it's almost imperceptible, but you can kill 3/4 - 1.5 stops depending upon the mesh.
This is a grab from an interview - a 6x6 scrim jim overhead with a 4x6 silver reflector in front. The overhead was a full stop white, but allowed me to expose to capture the lake in the BG. I flagged the lens with a 2x2 piece of black foamcore on a c-stand. (Football geeks, name that linebacker!)
(I switched to a white reflector after this test still, made him look less metallic...)
Black mesh softens the light but it's almost imperceptible, but you can kill 3/4 - 1.5 stops depending upon the mesh.
This is a grab from an interview - a 6x6 scrim jim overhead with a 4x6 silver reflector in front. The overhead was a full stop white, but allowed me to expose to capture the lake in the BG. I flagged the lens with a 2x2 piece of black foamcore on a c-stand. (Football geeks, name that linebacker!)
(I switched to a white reflector after this test still, made him look less metallic...)
Thanks for everyones input. Im really trying to achieve something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFX0ZDinZ78 Im guessing they had the sun behind them and maybe a hmi shooting through a silk on a dolly or something for the fill?
Jordan Scott Price
Veteran
Actually, that would be doable with silver reflectors. In the tight two-shot, you don't see the PA who's walking with backwards with it, if that's how they did it. But you could, as you guess, hang a silk in front of an HMI, but look how even the light is on both sides of their faces. That looks like the work of reflectors directly in front of the talent. You could walk the HMI in front of them for the whole dolly move, but with film it probably would not be necessary.
Also remember this was shot on film, and film has far more latitude/sensitometry than video, or at least the video cameras you likely are using, so film can expose for the talent without losing the sky.
Looks too smooth. I'd say PAs with foamcore or some kind of soft bounce walking with the steadycam operator.
That looks like beadboard to me - not sourcy enough to be mirror board or Matthflectors, but they also could've modified the light with some nets. It's a bit of a diversion, but I don't remember this scene being this poorly blocked or edited. Aside from the atmosphere looking really staged and poorly choreographed, there are awful continuity issues at each and every edit point.
Been there, done that, and if you think that this clip was lit with a couple of PAs with foamcore you are deluding yourself. Movies that I have worked on of that budget range use a 12k Par on a western dolly leading the actors. It looks so even because the 12k is heavily diffused with a 4x frame. Without an overhead net or silk nothing less than a 12k par pushed through diffusion would give you that light quality. If this were lit with boards the light would be much harsher and the talent would be squinting. Beadboard or Foamcore bounce would not put out enough without an overhead silk.
Where you probably can’t afford a big HMI and the big generator to operate it, your best bet would be a 4k Par through a light diffusion. You can run it on a modified Honda EU6500is generator. To record dialogue without picking up the sound of the generator, run the generator out of the back of a van or truck. To avoid line loss over the long cable run to the generator use a Transformer/Distro on set to boost the voltage to compensate for the drop of voltage you will get over the long cable run. Rig the 4k on a doorway dolly and lead the actors by about 15’ and it will look good in a medium two shot as long as the sun is behind them.
If you go into cross cutting singles, then it would be worth putting them under a full silk to take the direction out of the sun. A full silk will enable you to use the 4k closer, with heavier diffusion, to model their faces. If you use a Power Factor Corrected 4k, you will have enough left over on a modified Honda EU6500 to also power an 1800W Par or ARRIMAX to serve as a kicker so that you don’t lose the feel of the back lit scene that you are cutting the singles into.
If you have any questions about using transformers with generators, I would suggest you read an article I wrote on the use of portable generators in motion picture production. Harry Box, author of “The Set Lighting Technician’s Handbook” has cited my article in the just released Fourth Edition of the handbook. In addition, he has established a link to it from the companion website for the Fourth Edition of the Handbook, called “Box Book Extras.”
If you haven't yet read the article, or looked at it in a while, it is worth reading. I have greatly expanded it to be the definitive resource on portable power generation for motion picture production. Of the article Harry Box states:
"Great work!... this is the kind of thing I think very few technician's ever get to see, and as a result many people have absolutely no idea why things stop working."
"Following the prescriptions contained in this article enables the operation of bigger lights, or more smaller lights, on portable generators than has ever been possible before."
"Following the prescriptions contained in this article enables the operation of bigger lights, or more smaller lights, on portable generators than has ever been possible before."
The “Box Book Extras,” site is also worth checking out because it includes other source material used for the handbook, articles by Harry Box published in other periodicals, related websites, a list of production oriented i-phone apps, as well as more in depth discussion of topics touched upon in the handbook. You can log onto the Box Book Extras site at http://booksite.focalpress.com/box/setlighting/ with our pass-code "setlighting." Use this link for my news letter article on the use of portable gas generators in motion picture production.
Guy Holt, Gaffer, SceenLight & Grip, Lighting and Grip Rental & Sales in Boston.
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Nah, regardless of the big budget way, one guy with a 4'X8' beadboard could provide that fill just fine. Notice the light is coming from below. You could even use a dolly and punch a hole in the board for the camera if you wanted.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I think it is worth examining the extras
using a bit of board would light the talent only - could work on a budget version
I think the first tool to lighting this is to shoot film with a wide DR
As for the lighting no idea on this no idea, but its more than a board
As for the opening comments on blue sky you will see even this does not have a blue sky but a 'white' one at the opening
S
using a bit of board would light the talent only - could work on a budget version
I think the first tool to lighting this is to shoot film with a wide DR
As for the lighting no idea on this no idea, but its more than a board
As for the opening comments on blue sky you will see even this does not have a blue sky but a 'white' one at the opening
S