Cobra Kai: F55 & A7S II - decent skin tones, 4K

[jcs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rB36UGoP4Y

Decent skin tones for the most part (last scene WB too green). IMDB listed A7S 2 as first camera, looks like mostly F55.

YouTube Original Content production/story as good as anything on Netflix, Amazon Original content, 4K looks great. 1st two episodes free. 30 day free trial if you get hooked to see the rest, after 30 days $10/mo. Not clear if there's enough content relative to Netflix / Amazon Prime to make worth it (they do provide music similar to Pandora/Spotify included, so if e.g. tired of Pandora ads, might be worth it).

 

[Sttratos]

Wrong forum.

 

[jcs]

Thanks for the heads up Sttratos.

Always thought the F55 was in the same class as the F35/F65 since it effectively replaced them in the market. Now the VENICE is top of the food chain, and wouldn't be surprised if VENICE color science comes to the F55. Wouldn't it make more sense to group the F35/F55/F65/VENICE in the same class (you'd think VENICE would be called F75, but that's a recorder (VENICE: MPC-3610)). Sony tends to get bashed for color science vs. ARRI etc., thought they did a nice job with color for the most part with Cobra Kai and felt they deserved some positive feedback.

Why would anyone put the F55 in the same class as the FS5, FS7 etc. (prosumer vs. high-end pro)?

In any case, it's cool if a mod wants to move this thread elsewhere, though I'd recommend switching up the forum headers to re-classify cameras based on pro/prosumer etc.

 

[Sttratos]

Thanks for the heads up Sttratos.

Always thought the F55 was in the same class as the F35/F65 since it effectively replaced them in the market. Now the VENICE is top of the food chain, and wouldn't be surprised if VENICE color science comes to the F55. Wouldn't it make more sense to group the F35/F55/F65/VENICE in the same class (you'd think VENICE would be called F75, but that's a recorder (VENICE: MPC-3610)). Sony tends to get bashed for color science vs. ARRI etc., thought they did a nice job with color for the most part with Cobra Kai and felt they deserved some positive feedback.

Why would anyone put the F55 in the same class as the FS5, FS7 etc. (prosumer vs. high-end pro)?

In any case, it's cool if a mod wants to move this thread elsewhere, though I'd recommend switching up the forum headers to re-classify cameras based on pro/prosumer etc.

I don't make the rules. The F55 forum is with the F3, F5 etc. Then they added the FS7 and later the FS5 too to that same forum, saying it would be temporary. But it has been years now. But the F55 doesn't belong with with F35 and F65. Totally different camera, form factor and market segment. The F55 is identical to the F5 apart from the sensor and the F5 has the same sensor as the FS7. The F55 belongs with the F5 for sure. The F35 and F65 are full on cinema cameras. The F55 is more of a broadcast Swiss army knife camera.

By the way the F55 never replaced the F35 or F65. Again these are high end cinema cameras. The F55 is effectively in a different line. The F35 was replaced by the F65. The F65 coexisted with the F55. F55 didn't replace it and as the number says sits bellow the F65. The F65 was replaced by the Venice. F55 is a totally different line than F35, F65 and Venice.

 

[jcs]

I don't make the rules. The F55 forum is with the F3, F5 etc. Then they added the FS7 and later the FS5 too to that same forum, saying it would be temporary. But it has been years now. But the F55 doesn't belong with with F35 and F65. Totally different camera, form factor and market segment. The F55 is identical to the F5 apart from the sensor and the F5 has the same sensor as the FS7. The F55 belongs with the F5 for sure. The F35 and F65 are full on cinema cameras. The F55 is more of a broadcast Swiss army knife camera.

By the way the F55 never replaced the F35 or F65. Again these are high end cinema cameras. The F55 is effectively in a different line. The F35 was replaced by the F65. The F65 coexisted with the F55. F55 didn't replace it and as the number says sits bellow the F65. The F65 was replaced by the Venice. F55 is a totally different line than F35, F65 and Venice.

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/digital-cinema-cameras

 

[Sttratos]

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/digital-cinema-cameras

What's your point? Blackmagic calls many of their cameras cinema cameras. The AF100 was called a cinema camera.

It's clear the F35 and F65 are just higher end and made for a different style of shooting. The F55 doesn't belong with them.

 

[CharlesPapert]

It's clear the F35 and F65 are just higher end and made for a different style of shooting. The F55 doesn't belong with them.

I can't speak for Sony marketing but whether or not the F55 wasn't considered in the same class, it has still proved worthy for a great many projects that couldn't afford the F65 and needed 4K. I certainly know of many episodic TV series shot on F55's, don't know about features or commercials. I myself have never been a particularly big fan and when the Varicam came along, that became my go to for 4K mandated acquisition (various other options now and emerging soon of course).

Having shot a few projects for Youtube Red, I can tell you that the budgets are such that less expensive cameras like the F55 and Varicam LT are well-suited!

 

[Sttratos]

I can't speak for Sony marketing but whether or not the F55 wasn't considered in the same class, it has still proved worthy for a great many projects that couldn't afford the F65 and needed 4K. I certainly know of many episodic TV series shot on F55's, don't know about features or commercials. I myself have never been a particularly big fan and when the Varicam came along, that became my go to for 4K mandated acquisition (various other options now and emerging soon of course).

Having shot a few projects for Youtube Red, I can tell you that the budgets are such that less expensive cameras like the F55 and Varicam LT are well-suited!

Charles that is a totally different matter. Of course the F55 is worthy. But as you said so yourself its main success is on TV. Exactly because of what I said. It's more of a broadcast Swiss army knife camera. F65 is a straight up cinema camera.

 

[jcs]

Sony frequently mentions the F65 and F55 when discussing the VENICE: https://ascmag.com/blog/the-film-book/speaking-with-sony-venice-team-thefilmbook. VENICE uses the same accessories as the F55, RAW recorder etc. In the article they note the VENICE has the F65 color filters, so for the F55 to get VENICE color science looks like a sensor change would be required.

While Sony intended the F65 to be the flagship product, the F55 was far more popular, and is the most used top camera from Sony. What they learned about the F65 and F55 helped shape the VENICE, which is more like the F55 than F65 (again, shares accessories with the F55). While I've been a fan of the F65 since Lucy and Oblivion, I hadn't been very impressed with F55 footage. Not clear if Sony updated the firmware or colorists got a better handle on it over the years.

The number one cinema cameras come from ARRI. In recent years all the top academy award films are shot on ARRI cameras (as the A camera; other cameras are also used). I was impressed with the color of Cobra Kai, and was surprised to learn it was shot on the F55. I had viewed studio demos where the F55 matched Alexa, however Alexa shines in varied environments and lighting conditions, so a studio test is just a small sample.

Again kudos to Sony for creating a camera that can compete with the market dominant ARRI. The new VENICE color science is a nice improvement, and look forward to seeing Sony apply those improvements to other cameras (FS5 II, A7S III (rumor), would seem natural as a paid upgrade for the F55 (+ sensor change)).

 

[reem12]

honestly the skin tones are very bad imho. very orange and unnatural.

 

[jcs]

For this shot, as good as anything from ARRI for these conditions:


4 different skintones, mixed lighting, and blue sky out the window (back lit). Great color and DR. Do we need to get the scopes out lol?
Agree some shots need work, however overall looks pretty good. Bodes well for the VENICE.

 

[Run&Gun]

I don't make the rules. The F55 forum is with the F3, F5 etc. Then they added the FS7 and later the FS5 too to that same forum, saying it would be temporary. But it has been years now.

Well there is still an "NAB 2016" sub-forum, too...

 

[Guest]

In my brief testing between the Alexa, Dragon, F35, MX, and F55, there is no contest in which is getting the most highlights. That said. F35 is really nice straight from the camera. Very minor tweaking. Most other cameras I have to remap their tone curve quite a bit, which can be tricky depending on bit depth, noise floor, and which monitor LUT I used. I still like all of the cameras, and I have been fortunate to shoot with the F55 more lately. Just so easy to use and get through a tight day. 150wh battery goes for 4-7hr depending on accessories. Venice is a few pounds heavier, and it can be felt. But looks like a nice evolution in image quality. Seems a subtle or nuanced upgrade in visual quality, but being able to dial internal ND's in 8 steps, is awesome.

 

[jcs]

In my brief testing between the Alexa, Dragon, F35, MX, and F55, there is no contest in which is getting the most highlights. That said. F35 is really nice straight from the camera. Very minor tweaking. Most other cameras I have to remap their tone curve quite a bit, which can be tricky depending on bit depth, noise floor, and which monitor LUT I used. I still like all of the cameras, and I have been fortunate to shoot with the F55 more lately. Just so easy to use and get through a tight day. 150wh battery goes for 4-7hr depending on accessories. Venice is a few pounds heavier, and it can be felt. But looks like a nice evolution in image quality. Seems a subtle or nuanced upgrade in visual quality, but being able to dial internal ND's in 8 steps, is awesome.

Have you seen F55 footage that looks similar (nuanced) to the model shoot and Venice Italy shoots? http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?360234-Sony-VENICE-Impressive-Skin-Tones

The VENICE has the F65's color filters, the F55 does not (though seems like it could be a worthwhile upgrade/sensor swap if Sony were to offer it). The FS5 II has the VENICE color science, and the A7S III is rumored to get it as well. The VENICE model shoot looked as good as anything from ARRI (though clearly a different flavor/look vs. typical Alexa footage). The VENICE in Venice shoot showed amazing alias/artifact free "Nyquist Limit" detail in 4K. Hadn't seen that before from any footage on YouTube 4K and 4K desktop monitors (Alexa 65 and LF footage downloaded from ARRI looks pretty good too. This is also very impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twobOUE-oy4). I could see the VENICE making progress against ARRI in the cinema market if the footage turns out to be as easy to make look good as Alexa cameras (and well over 2x lower cost vs. the Alexa LF).

 

[SJX]

Why we discussing F55 here? I think cobra kai looks like video. Skin look plastic sometimes or mushy others. F35 doesn't and I guess Alexa also not. Why cobra kai is only 720p? I hope you can watch HD if you pay.

 

[jcs]

Why we discussing F55 here? I think cobra kai looks like video. Skin look plastic sometimes or mushy others. F35 doesn't and I guess Alexa also not. Why cobra kai is only 720p? I hope you can watch HD if you pay.

What browser are you using and download bandwidth? In Chrome and 200+Mbps streams in 4K- not mushy/plastic at all.

Just watched a recent Alexa LF video in 4K- looked like video. Depends on lenses, lighting, grade. F55 is currently Sony’s top selling cinema camera. Same class as F65 per Sony (which hasn’t sold nearly as well).

 

[SJX]

F55 same class as F65? Sorry is not. F65 is true 4k and has 8k sensor for starters. Besides this is not F55 forum. Discuss F55 there please.

 

[CharlesPapert]

For this shot, as good as anything from ARRI for these conditions:
View attachment 130905

4 different skintones, mixed lighting, and blue sky out the window (back lit). Great color and DR. Do we need to get the scopes out lol?

I wouldn't attribute anything I see in that frame to the dynamic range of the camera--the ability to hold blue in the sky is surely a function of tinted windows (I'd imagine given the budget of the show that they weren't ND'd, but the glass was likely quite tinted to begin with), exposure set to that level and then the scene was lit to that. Pretty standard stuff.

 

[abreu-canedo]

I watched the two free episodes, and to be honest, I wasn't too blown away by the look. Of course, that's subjective and our opinions can differ. I also saw "Amateur" on Netflix (shot on F55), and I also thought the images were underwhelming. That said, I think it's a tricky conversation to try to attribute the look of a camera to a show, or the look of a show to a camera. It's even more tricky to judge the quality of a camera based on the look of a show...or vice versa.

While I disliked these two shows, I thought the show Vinyl looked really good and it was shot on F55. I also thought certain episodes of Marco Polo also looked quite good and it too was shot on F55.

I'd be hesitant to attribute the success or failure of a show's look to a camera, but instead, the professionals, workflow and budget.

 

[jcs]

F55 same class as F65? Sorry is not. F65 is true 4k and has 8k sensor for starters. Besides this is not F55 forum. Discuss F55 there please.

The F65 is a 6K (5.7K) camera. Rotating the Bayer grid was a nice trick, especially for marketing, but at the end of the day it's a 5.7K camera: http://www.reduser.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-122927.html

Sony considers the F55 in the same class as the VENICE and F65 https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/digital-cinema-cameras:


https://ascmag.com/blog/the-film-book/speaking-with-sony-venice-team-thefilmbook

Most professional digital motion picture cameras, like the Sony F55, have adopted a sensor close to 3-Perf Super35, a format that facilitates using existing spherical lenses for 1.78:1 television series and 1.85:1 features.

Benjamin B: What was the design process that led to the Venice?

Sony team members: We gathered a lot of feedback from owners and users of the F65 and F55. We also spoke to directors of photography, camera assistants, DITs, colorists and others to find out what they wanted in a camera.

One big request was a larger sensor size. There is a lot of movement in the market towards Full Frame. Another request was to achieve a correct area for anamorphic with a 6 by 5 format. The F55 has a 17 by 9 sensor that doesn’t fit anamorphic. We wanted to offer the best quality anamorphic.

So we ended up with a Full Frame sensor that would cover every format that people were asking for.

How did you decide upon 6K resolution for the Full Frame?

Sony team: The scanning area for shooting Super35 on the Venice is the same as the F55 sensor. 4K is the industry standard for Super35 size, and 6K is a natural extension when you scale to Full Frame.

We found that 6K offers a "sweet spot" for image quality, with very good dynamic range and signal to noise ratio. It’s important to stress that resolution is only one of the factors that makes a great image.

FD Times states that the photosites on the sensor are 6 microns?

Sony team: Roughly. Let’s say that they are similar to those of the F55. Again, the area for shooting Super35 on the Venice is the same as the F55 sensor.

Some projects will require higher speeds, will they be able to intercut footage from the Venice and the F55?

Sony team: Yes, as we mentioned the sensor is similar, and the workflow is the same.

The Venice has two internal ND filter wheels which provide a big range of Neutral Density correction.

Sony team: The F55 has two internal NDs and a lot of customers wanted more. When Claudio Miranda, ASC, visited our facility in Japan he told our engineers that he wanted to solve the problem of time wasted during production changing NDs, for example when the sun is setting. So we did feasibility studies and came up with two ND turrets.

Will Sony continue to manufacture F65s and F55s?

Sony team: We are not discontinuing the F65 or F55. We will keep making F55s – and F65s if people want them.

Once the VENICE is fully released (full firmware etc.) I don't think many people will want the F65 or F55...

The F55, F65, and VENICE are all related, and are currently the top 3 cameras from available from Sony. The VENICE combines the best of what was learned from the F55 (form factor, ND filters, power consumption, media / post, size, cost, weight) with the better color filters and color science used on the F65. Thus all these cameras belong to the same set of current top pro cinema cameras offered by Sony. The no-longer-produced F35 has it's own trick CCD sensor which still delivers amazing 1080p footage and about 11-12 stops of DR and this does not diminish the current market positions of the 14-stop F55 (with a 4K sensor really producing 2.7K of actual detail (vs. F35 1.9K), VENICE (6K => True 4K), and F65 (5.7K => True 4K (5.7K is min pixels needed for True 4K)). Thus: VENICE > F65 > F55 > F35 as far as Sony is concerned, and I believe the VENICE will do very well in the market against even ARRI.