Client that doesn't want what he wants... need some guidance.

R

Ryan-Guy

Well-known member
This is a plea for help to all you that have business experience dealing with clients that have no idea what they want.

Let me start by saying that that I've been shooting professionally for about 3 years now, but up until now all of my gigs have been for the most part simple camera operation. Long story short I've gotten the attention of a some serious clients from some of my work. This is my first real gig thats entirely mine.

To give some context, we made a very interesting mini-doc about a girl skydiving that had a very moving story. This is what caught the client's attention.

Now here's the dilemma, an executive of a tv station wants us to make a 4-5 minute piece about a shopping center. He doesn't want it to be an infomercial, he wants a story that will be interesting to the viewer. He wants the narrator, but when we start coming up with ideas involving a narrator, he only wants interviews of the employees. When we start working on ideas with employees narrating, he wants a single person to follow through the center. Then its talking about the single person, and we're back to narrator. You can see where this is going. Basically everything he says he wants, when we start talking about it, he shoots them down like they were my ideas. BTW, he's not a bad guy at all.

I've never walked away from a meeting feeling so stupid in my life, while wondering if it was me or him. I've given them three ideas ranging from "safe" to "creative" that I feel would be interesting and accomplish all of their goals and would be within budget. They say that they like the the "safe" one and are going with it, yet when he starts talking about that version, he perfectly describes my "creative" version. I know that my descriptions are not vague at all, they we're written out very clearly.

Guys, I'm at a loss here. How do I convince him that my ideas will accomplish everything he wants, but with no proven track-record? If I shoot verbatim his descriptions, the project will be a disaster, which is good for no one. I really can't walk away from this, because there is so much opportunity for other work such as commercials, etc. within this network.

Maybe I'm just venting here, but I hope that you guys would understand and have some experience with this sort of thing at least once in your careers.

Thanks
 
There are two approaches here. The documentary approach where you settle on a basic structure, like employee interviews, go shoot gobs of footage and interviews, then find the story and drama from the footage if it is there. Or there is the dramatic approach of defining a theme and planning a shooting script.
If you or your producer had to define a theme for this film in one sentence, what would it be? If you can't do that then it is too nebulous at this point and needs further thought.
Who is the audience? What is the message? Is it a news magazine type of story?
Maybe you need to get them to commit to shooting some interviews first to see if there is something worth pursuing. Something to hang a theme on. Story and narration would develop from the results of the interviews. But you need at least a theme in mind to even know what to ask people during the interviews. Effects of the current economy, behind the scenes life of the people, hot marketing trends, retail display design, there are many possible themes for a short piece like this. But you have to decide on one to make it work in five minutes.

Sounds like you had a first brainstorming session, good start. Do it again.
Brainstorm ideas for themes. Get your producer to do his work. Write down as many ideas for themes as the two of you can come up with. Don't pre judge. Make your producer pick a narrative theme from the list as a starting point. That is his job. Then it gets easier to plan the shoot.
If possible you should get paid for development time too.
 
Last edited:
wanna be extra save? I depends on HOW MUCH U WANT IT. . . but If you are willing to go through any pain to get this one right (and it seems to be the case, I assume) then do this:

shoot enough footage to cover BOTH versions maybe even a third. Cut one into the "desired by TV guy" and then have one you feel is the your perfect version and send them in both. Extra work that wont get payed? ell the pay comes in later when having that TV guy tellign everyone how f***ing awesome you are and doing such a great job, going extra miles etc ^^

is that an option?

I found myself in a situation where I thought I know best how to solve a poblem cuz I knew more than the others (they were simply the guys with money or, ya know, the "boss") but I had nothing to "proof" to them to make them go "oh, well seems this guy really knows what he's talking about lets shut up and listen to him for a change . . ." so i figured I will do EXACTLY as they say PLUS have my version ready to compare. Because thhink about it that way, sometimes these kinda guys are so full of themselves that ANYTHING that looks/sounds better than their "idea" is automatically ****, they start nitpicking and then go "well it is ok, but not what we want" BAM. . . u are screwed. . . that is when u just started ^^ with no options no respected opinion etc. . .

so if you cant find a way to change their mind in a respectful way (even use backdoors like talking to a colleague or somethin) than all thats left is to do what they want FIRST and everything else comes second.

You still got "time" to talk or are things pretty much set in stone? Though I dont see how talking to "such a kinda guy" will get you anywhere. Your problem is obviously HIS personality.
 
There seem to be basic structures to web video

-shots + music

-shots plus "hi im nigel - let me show you waht goes on here" (sypathetic reportage)

- hi im nigel from all-baloons-dot com 'all ballons are the best balloons' (advert)

-and the best is a story.. a cliff hanger

"today we are testing the biggest party baloon in our range.. will it work"

the last is the best hardest and most powerful, rarely done on the web, done in all forms on telly

id go throught some vids with the client, pick a format and shoot it

You are opening a can of worms trying to work it out affterwards - re edits re shoots , fall outs dissapointment

S
 
This is a really difficult situation. I suspect this person has some form of OCD. OCD is caused by high anxiety. The problem is that the anxiety causes them to keep changing their mind because they are not sure of themselves or what they want due to anxiety. It may be something else, but that's been my experience. Even if you get them to sign off on an outline or script, they still won't be happy with the product. There is no winning in this case. So...

- Get him to sign off on an outline/script. He'll change his mind later, but at least you have that as something to fall back on as to why you did what you did.

- Do what Hydarnes says. Shoot 2 or 3 different versions and hope one of them satisfies the client.
 
At some point, and as GENTLY as possible, remind them that the reason you're there in the meeting is because they love your work. So they should trust you...

And to cover your own rump, if you really want this client, I recommend evaluating if it's possible to do what Hydarnes said, and get footage that would allow you to do both versions.

And by all means, do as Paul F said, and get him to sign off on an outline & script. Not doing that would be suicide. You need to have some point of agreement, and a signed-off script with some crude sketch storyboards is infinitely better than nothing. If you're already concerned about this guy's predisposition to changing his mind, then for your own sanity you have to get him to agree, in writing, to what it is you're setting out to do. Even if the end product comes out nothing like what was agreed to, at least you'll have some sort of agreement you can point back to!
 
Thanks guys for all the input. I just had a third meeting with one of the execs that I am more familiar with, and things turned around.

The issue stemmed from this: They believe in my work and my ability to create something good. However, it is the shopping center that is end customer, and has requested the piece. The execs need something concrete to pitch to them; something that would ease their anxiety on spending money for production. I suggested a detailed outline today coming from your guy's advice (thank you). The main guy's meeting methodology is unstructured from what I gather, and he was brainstorming in someway, which I didn't understand because I thought I was just explaining my original pitch to them before they approached the shopping center. Yet every time I engaged in his brainstorming, he reverted back to the original.

Basically I just need to make an outline that will be understood by the shopping center execs, and get them to sign off on it. They don't want me to walk in and start shooting without a detailed plan of the end result.

This shopping center is unique in that it is up against the beach, open air, and has everything for tourist. My pitch is sort of a day in the life of a shopping center, with the angle of what makes this shopping center unique. Interviewing employees and maybe a tourist or two for good measure. This is little harder though, because interviews aren't scripted. I plan to load the questions and maybe feed some answers if I don't get what I need, but you can see how this isn't science, and responses can range.

BTW this is my least favorite pitch of the three, and was bummed but not surprised when they choose it. The others were far more engaging and unique (and fun to make).
 
Last edited:
Barry_Green said:
You need to have some point of agreement, and a signed-off script with some crude sketch storyboards is infinitely better than nothing.
Click to expand...

Best bet is to at least have the script in a format like this that explicitly spells out what happens when. Storyboards are great too, but sans those, this should be the very least that is signed off on.
 
Ryan-Guy said:
The execs need something concrete to pitch to them; something that would ease their anxiety on spending money for production.
Click to expand...

Did they twist the end client's arm in order to get them to agree to make a commercial in the first place?
 
Gary Huff said:
Did they twist the end client's arm in order to get them to agree to make a commercial in the first place?
Click to expand...

No, they approached the tv channel. Guess that "ease anxiety" wasn't the right wording. What is needed is a more detailed plan then the pitch, which is understandable. They want a documentary style piece though, so I have offered to make a list of topics that will be included, along with sample questions for each topic as a solution. That way I can have some flexibility in the edit room. Waiting to hear back on that offer. I don't want to pigeonhole myself to a ridged script because docs need to work themselves out in the edit.
 
Ryan-Guy said:
I don't want to pigeonhole myself to a ridged script because docs need to work themselves out in the edit.
Click to expand...

But that leads to surprise, and it doesn't sound like your client particularly likes surprises.

Besides, if it's a commercial, then you may shoot it like a doc, but production-wise it should be anything but.
 
Gary Huff said:
Best bet is to at least have the script in a format like this that explicitly spells out what happens when. Storyboards are great too, but sans those, this should be the very least that is signed off on.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is the standard script format for a television commercial or typical video production, and it is much more approachable for a client than a standard feature film script format.
 
tell him to leave you with artistic license. It was your film making that got you there and he should trust it. If he doesn't trust you, tell him to draw up a detailed brief for you to work to. you should write up a contract outlining your services which you will provide in order to fulfill his brief and then any adjustments he wants should be billed for accordingly.

Be prepared for this guy to waste a lot of your time and in the end the project will be one you may regret. These types of guys are hell.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yes, that is the standard script format for a television commercial or typical video production, and it is much more approachable for a client than a standard feature film script format.
Click to expand...

I know, which is funny when I show it to people who should know better who tell me it isn't the proper format because it doesn't look like a narrative script.
 
I think somebody, either you or TV station execs (btw why isn't a marketing company doing this?) need to step up, take the risk and TELL the shopping mall execs what is DEFINITIVELY a better approach. It should be agreed upon at the beginning, do the paper work as Barry and others have suggested, and continue to remind them of the agreement and sell them and re-sell them on it every time they sway.
 
Gary Huff said:
Best bet is to at least have the script in a format like this that explicitly spells out what happens when. Storyboards are great too, but sans those, this should be the very least that is signed off on.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I don't think that this is practical for this specific project. They want it 4-5 minutes long, and frankly, I'm not getting paid enough to predict the piece, and also they want it documentary style, which is not predictable at all. In my other pitches, I could have made a VERY detailed script just like the one in the link, but alas, they chose the least scriptable, thinking that it was the "safest."

I told them that I would give them an outline of the topics that we will cover, and some sample questions for each topic, and that is as far as I am willing to go. I specifically told them that the topics will not be in any order, so that it will leave me some creative freedom.
 
Charge hourly.

Get a contract.

Let him make as many changes as he wants.

Charge accordingly.

Stupid should be painful.
Click to expand...

A thousand times this ^^^.

Also, when clients start talking about videos that involve following someone through a mall in terms like "engages the viewer", it's time to reiterate your creative experience. Anyone who believes someone will willingly watch and enjoy a 5 minute video of someone walking through a mall and talking is out of their mind.
 
It strikes me there is a mismatch here. You are not being asked to shoot to somebody else's idea, you're being asked to be the producer and the director and the production company. Trying to do this via a 3rd party will dilute everything. If every idea you punt is received using their perception of what the client will like, and then taking ideas from the client and then representing these to you - everything is subject to filtering where it may well be destructive. I'd suggest a meeting with ALL parties - your ideas may not be arriving at the end client intact, and you need to talk directly to the client. Doing it through a 3d party simply increase the miscommunication. It sounds as if you are one minute wearing a cameramans hat, wanting to know what they want, next minute you swap to executive producer, then drop down to assistant producer. It's a mess.

I never deal with middlemen - and getting all parties together maintains the chain, but allows you to leapfrog if required. I did a project for a company that was in essence one of those 'how it's made' type products, but the factory manager was forwarding all my comments and questions to the MD, who had a different spin on the entire thing. The Factory Manager felt it was important to show off the machinery and clever processes, while the MD actually wanted the company ethic and service to be the key factor - which the Manager had put less emphasis on. It was obvious on our first group meeting that many of my suggestions had never made it to the MD, being filtered out - and I guess this is happening with your project.

The things in your head need to get to the end client, intact - and this is where I think it's going wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top